Uncut Interviews

31 thoughts on “Uncut Interviews”

1. Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you
   were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
   My name is Claudia Himmelreich; I was born in 1963 in Magdeburg, East
   Germany. I grew up in Warsaw, Poland, in Belgrade, Yugoslavia and in
   Berlin. I graduated from high school in Berlin and then studied
   German, English and Russian at Humboldt University in Berlin. It was
   also translator’s course, and after graduating from college I worked at
   the East German government-run translator’s agency for about five
   years, which was about the time the Wall fell. And ever since I’ve
   worked for Canadian or American media organizations.
   You lived in the East, as you said, and how did this affect you and
   your way of living?
   What? Living in the East?
   Yes.
   Well, that was my life. I didn’t know a different one. I was aware there
   was another part of Germany. It felt very weird that the two parts
   were separate. I was aware that I had relatives on the other side of
   the country. I hardly ever saw them; I didn’t really connect to them.
   I found it pretty weird that I couldn’t even go to the other side of
   my hometown, Berlin. That didn’t feel very natural, but on the other
   side we led a sheltered existence in East Germany. We were safe from
   many horses of the modern age. There were no drugs there. There was
   hardly any crime. There was no unemployment. Life was pretty good for
   most people, although they, of course, missed the freedom to travel, the
   freedom of speech and other things they’ve now come — got used to since
   the Wall is gone and since Germany is reunited.
   Please recall you opinions (of the time) towards the division of
   Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not?
   I did not support the division, but I understood the reasons that led
   to it. The problem in the 1950s was that the two parts of Germany were
   taking very different courses of development. In West Germany the
   market economy was being built, and in East Germany there was a state-
   run economy and prices for basic commodities were, for example,
   subsidized by the government. Meaning that bread and milk and butter
   and vegetables cost very little in the East, which led to people from
   the West coming to the East and buying these things, leading to
   shortages in the East. And on the other hand, jobs were much better paid
   in the West. So some people living in the East went to work in the
   West; then they had a lot of money. They could exchange it on the Black
   Market at a one-to-ten ratio, and they were like the kings in the East. But as many people preferred to live in the West, this led to a brain
   drain. People were trained in the East and after completing their
   training, their education, they went to the West, leaving East Germany
   with a shortage of skilled personnel. So they decided to close the
   boarder; and once this happened the developments were even more
   separate on both parts of the wall. So it was very hard to imagine that
   the wall could be removed under the existing circumstances that a
   capitalist and a communist country were on either side.
   So, in your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable?
   (Laughs) No, it was not reasonable. It was very artificial. It was
   very strange. It meant cutting traffic arteries. It meant, of course,
   separating families. It led to a lot of personal hardship; and
   eventually something had to be done about it, although people were very
   surprised that it happened so suddenly at a point when everyone had
   given up to believe it would ever happen.
   You had family on the other side? How did the division come between
   your friendships and relationships?
   Well, with me the point was that I never even got to know that part of
   my family. This was a brother of my mother and their sons were my
   cousins, and I don’t even recall ever meeting them. I think I was very
   little when I met them once; and ever since these were just people for
   me that I knew to be relatives, but I didn’t know them. It felt a bit
   like a void not knowing this part of the family, but as most of my family
   was living in the East I wasn’t too badly affected by it.
   Can you provide examples of blatant censorship/propaganda on either side?
   Yeah, the first thing that comes to my mind is a TV program in the
   East which was called “Der Schwarze Kanal,” (The Black Channel), and
   a journalist every week provided examples of alleged propaganda or
   lies broadcast by the West. But to most people this was so — such obvious
   communist propaganda and it was so ridiculous that it was kind of a
   cult show. It didn’t quite reach its purpose, but people found it
   totally funny. They just watched it and ridiculed it. Well, more than
   propaganda it was perhaps the availability of information from both
   sides that made living in Germany really interesting because you had the
   opinion you were always very well informed because you could always
   listen to two sides of a matter. So that was actually not the worst
   thing. You could always watch Western and Eastern television and radio
   and you could form your own opinion on the basis of that.
   You were a kid when you grew up in the East, right?
   What did your dad do?
   Yeah, my dad was a trained economist. He worked in a company that
   produced machinery that was exported to many countries of the Eastern
   Bloc, and this is why he was sent to the East German embassy in Warsaw,
   at first to promote contacts to Polish enterprises, and later on, he
   held the same job at the East German embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia.
   For us, as kids, this was, of course, very interesting, getting to know
   other countries. We enjoyed traveling with my parents a lot.
   Okay. Had you (or anyone you knew well) tried to escape to the other
   side of Berlin?
   Yeah, actually I had a cousin who once tried to escape over the wall,
   and he was arrested. He was caught. He was jailed for one and a half
   years for doing this but while in jail he was, so to speak, purchased
   free by the West. They had this program that West Germany paid money
   for political inmates, political detainees in the East, and they were
   then, even before serving their sentence, sent over to the West. But I
   was once arrested and detained, although just for a few hours, for just
   taking a walk near the wall, near my parents‘ place. It was a beautiful
   winter day, and we just ignored signs saying THIS IS BORDER AREA. NO TRESPASSING. We just walked on and, all of a sudden, we were stopped by
   border guards with submachine guns, and they took us to the Stasi
   headquarters and questioned us for a couple of hours. We were then
   just fined for violating the border legislation, as they called it.
   Since your dad worked for the government, did you get special
   privileges that others kids didn’t?
   No, unfortunately I didn’t get any special privileges, although it was
   a privilege to be living in Yugoslavia for 16 years because other East
   Germans weren’t even allowed to travel there. That was one serious
   limitation in the East. That you were allowed to travel to socialist countries only and Yugoslavia was considered not that reliable as a socialist ally, so people weren‘t allowed to go there. Well, we lived there because my dad worked there but other than that, no. We had no access to hard currency or special stores that existed for a couple privileged functionaries in the East, where they could buy Western goods. We had no access to that.
   Can you describe any experiences that you (or anyone you knew well) had dealing with the Stasi?
   The Stasi? Actually, I did. I had friends when I was in college who were active in the dissident movement, and they had their apartment searched several times. They had their phones bugged, and they were also detained once overnight to prevent them from taking part in a demonstration. At some point they asked me to hide some materials and some newspapers they were producing at my place. They always feared their place would be searched. But that’s about it.
   How did you know whom you could trust? Did you trust the media? Why or why not?
   Well, in terms of people, you had to rely on your gut feeling of who to trust. But you were aware that in every work team (there were rumors), that in every class at college, there was a spy. So you just got used to this idea that there are always people around you who you can‘t trust and you tended to ignore that most of the time. Well, you could not necessarily trust the media. You learned to read between the lines, which is something quite useful because you can also need it these days. And you always had access to radio or TV of the West, so if you were in doubt about something you could compare it with what they said there and then try and figure out by yourself what was the truth.
   Were you aware of the corrupt style with which the government ruled?
   We were not too aware of that. Most of that only emerged after the Wall fell because they (Russian officers) lived in an enclave on the outskirts of Berlin in the middle of the forest. Only after the Wall was gone and this government had to resign, TV crews were allowed in and they showed footage of a special store these people had where they sold Western goods. For example, almost everything was available there from tropical fruit to VCRs and DVD players. It was pretty amazing because they always spoke about their big pride in the products made in the East, while on the other side they apparently didn’t trust them and preferred Western products in their own store. This was something we didn’t even suspect, I think. Because these people came with such a big — with such good credentials. They had all served time in concentration camps or jail under the Nazis so you thought these people would be good.
   Can you create a picture of the general attitude toward the Russian officers?
   In Berlin you didn’t see the Russian officers all that often. Because in Berlin itself there wasn’t — well yeah, there was one base in East Berlin. But I lived very far form there. So I hardly ever met any of them. The one thing that everyone was aware of was that the Russian soldiers, about 100,000 of them, were based in East Germany, that they led very miserable lives. They were hardly ever let out of their barracks. And if they did they seemed really malnourished, constantly hungry, wearing uniforms in very bad style, sometimes even dirty. And everyone knew these are the poor buggers. No one ever thought about the Russian army officers. You did meet sometimes in the opera or in theatre because they were very interested in culture and in music, but other than that, regular people didn’t have any contact with them.
   How would you describe the protests of the 1980s?
   Well, those protests started very late in the 1980s. In the early or mid 80s there were a couple of underground groups, mostly under the auspicious of the Protestant church, who met secretly, who published leaflets and newspapers: But the general public didn’t even know about there existence. All this was under the influence of Solidarisch, the freedom movement in Poland. As a result, even traveling to Poland was restricted for a while. So people were very careful because they thought the government would clamp down on them, and later on it also became known that the East German regime had already planned a kind of detention camp for opponents of the regime all over Germany. This is where people would have ended up. However, in the fall of 1989 the developments became very intense. There were demonstrations in every major city of Germany, and the most impressive one for me was November 4th. As many a million East Berliners and East Germans were converging on and around Alexanderplatz. For the first time, everyone was carrying really imaginative, huge banners and posters and placards with cartoons making fun of the East German leaders and with calls for freedom and democracy. There were many speakers who demanded rights, which were so far denied to the East Germans. After demonstration, it only took another five days for the wall to come down.
   How did your family feel about the demonstrations, since they were working for the east German government?
   My parents did not know what to think about that. In general, they also supported improvements like the freedom to travel or more freedom of speech; but they feared that if the East German regime collapsed, then we would be taken over by West Germany, which would lead to economic disadvantages for the East and probably also personal consequences for them.
   Do you think that the protests of the 1980s were more to bring down the wall or to get more justice within the divided state? Explain.
   Well, at first these demonstrations were directed at improving the system in East Germany. People were, at first, thinking about more freedom — freedom to travel, the freedom of speech, more democracy in their own country. After a while these demonstrations assumed their own momentum and among the calls, „Wir sind das Volk,“ (We are the people.), which was like a self-assertion of the East German people. You started hearing We are one people. We are one nation, „Wir sind ein Volk.“ It was as if, all of the sudden, people thought, Well, once we are asking for these rights, why not become one Germany again? This eventually led to the collapse of the border, the Wall and the country, as a consequence of that.
   Were you involved in the SED? If you were, how did you undertake any actions that would have been against the policies of the SED?
   Well, I would have become a member of the SED at some point because you had the impression that you could only change the system from within. From within that party, that was the ruling party, that was the party that had the most influence. If you wanted to change something in the country you probably had to join it and try to do it from within that party. But it never came to that.
   Did you hear Reagen‘s speech? If so, what was the crowd`s reaction when he said, „Mr. Gorbachov, tear down this wall.“?
   I did not hear the speech when he originally said that, but I had to translate it very often because I often had to take demonstration delegations invited by the East German party of government to the Brandenburg Gate where there was a kind of museum, and there was a border guard who explained to people the necessity of the Wall and the evil nature of the American regime and how could they dare to interfere in our domestic affairs by asking for this border of the sovereign country to be gone? They always showed a picture of Reagen at the wall, and they said these words and I hade to translate them at the time. It was very weird.
   You worked for the East German government, as you said, and then you would go out and protest? Was that common? Did you have mixed feelings?
   Working for the government, occasionally, did not mean that you agreed to everything the government said or did. We were very critical of several things but also understood other things which may not have been very pleasant. But you saw the necessity of, for example, not having the chance to travel to the West because East Germany had a different currency. It was not a convertible currency. We wouldn’t have had any money to spend anywhere in the West, and. as this was such a paternalistic government which thought, we can‘t send our people to be beggars in the West, they restricted travel in the first place. They said, well you can be happy here. The Soviet Union is vast enough a country to explore and see that first before thinking about the West. The demonstration part, I took part on November 4th but that was so late in the day that the regime was already starting to collapse. There was already a feeling of change everywhere and it wasn’t, for example, dangerous. There was such a huge crowd that no one feared they could be arrested or there could be reprisals or anything for taking part in a demonstration like this when nearly every Berliner was present.
   Was November 4th then when you felt confident the country would be reunited? What happened to make you confident that reunification was on its way?
   No, at that point I absolutely didn’t think the country was going to be reunited. That was not at all the issue at this point. What we wanted was to improve our system and all of a sudden there seemed to be a chance for that. It was the first chance and had brought about much more enthusiasm than just giving in and becoming a part of another country. This would have felt like total resignation. But over the month, with a lot of West German propaganda and East Germany with many West German politicians who were in favor of unification touring the country, giving speeches, encouraging people to join. It became obvious that this was the course events were taking, and by spring, 1990 it was clear that unification was on its way.
   What happened to your job when East Germany fell? Did it end a few days before the actual fall?
   No, I still had my job for a couple of months after. But we were getting less and less business, and I think I was dismissed at about the time unification officially took place on October 3rd, 1990.
   On November,9th, 1989, how did you find out about the Fall of the Wall? Where were you and who were you with?
   On the night of November 9 I was with a friend at my place. We were just having a nice and cozy evening and didn’t think of turning on the TV, and I think we went to bed at about midnight when someone called us and said, “Hey! The Wall is open. We got to go!” But we thought it’s probably going to be open tomorrow as well, so we just didn’t run out. It was a long day. We had a long day waiting for us the next one so we didn’t just rush to the border, though I lived very close to it. I could have done it. I think on that very first night not all the checkpoints were open yet so I thought, “Oh, God, there is going to be such a crowd. I may wait until tomorrow.”
   What was your first emotion when you found out that the Wall fell and Germany would be reunited?
   The Fall of the Wall was not the moment Germany was reunited. The reunification was a year later; and we were very prepared for that, so there was no — not much of a unification. By October 3rd, 1990, I still had mixed feelings about things. So it was pretty emotional. I was there at the Brandenburg Gate or at the Reichstag. I was working, translating for a Canadian journalist, and the speeches given were very solemn and there were fireworks and all that. There was a festive mood to it, but I wasn’t quite sure yet what it was going to mean to me personally, so I had mixed emotions. That’s about all I can say.
   Did you visit your family as soon as the Wall fell or did you still see them as those
   distant relatives?
   Yeah, to me they were very distant relatives who, moreover, lived in a very distant part of Germany about 500 miles away. My parents did immediately though.
   Were you scared of any prejudices the other side could have had? What did you feel when you first passed through the Wall?
   No, I wasn’t particularly scared about prejudices. This was not on my mind at all. What I really, really enjoyed when I crossed the Wall first was that it felt like not just a trip to another part of my town, but to a — like a trip to the world, because I lived next to Kreuzberg, and on the other side you had Turkish stores and Indian restaurants and people from all over the country. While in East Berlin everything was like, pretty bland and boring. Everything was so German, maybe a sprinkle of Russian in between, so it felt very cosmopolitan to me on the other side of the wall. That’s what I enjoyed most. You didn’t feel locked into your tiny little country anymore but like being part of the world.
   How were the living conditions on the other side? Were you surprised by the living condition in any way (besides the diversity)?
   We were not very surprised because we always had television as a window to the other side of the Wall, although it was not exactly a very true picture or true image. What we saw on television were often soap operas from people who lived in villas and drove huge cars. But there were many parts of West Berlin that looked as shabby as the East. We were almost surprised that things weren’t better and glossier and richer there.
   What were the challenges that you personally faced after the Wall fell?
   The biggest challenge was, of course, finding a new job. But I felt I was pretty well educated and I had a marketable skill. My English was okay. Even at that point I had been working for English speaking journalists a lot, even before the Wall fell. So I thought I could probably land a job somewhere in that area, and I did.
   Did you worry about your future (or that of your family) as a result of the Fall of the Wall? If so, how?
   Yeah, I was worried about my parents, not just because they lost their jobs. I assumed they would get some pension, some retirement allowance that would allow them to live more or less comfortably. What was more worrying was that they saw a major part of what they had worked for and what they had believed in all their lives gone. So I thought, to them it must feel as if they had lived in vain, to a point. So that was worrying. And on a more personal level, my parents were afraid they would loose the house they had built because in East Germany you could only own your house but not the property it was built on. Property was nationally owned. The land they had built their house on was previously owned by someone who had defected to the West. That person came back and wrote my parents a letter that he wants them to leave immediately because now he is back and he is reclaiming his property. That was pretty worrying. My parents had to go to court and there were a couple of years of uncertainty until it was ruled that my parents had the right to stay on the property.
   After the Wall fell what part of Berlin did you want to live in and why?
   After the Wall fell I continued to live in Mitte, which is a very convenient location in Berlin because it’s right in the middle between East and West Berlin. Everything is at your fingertips. I just continued to live there, but of course, I obviously spent more time in the West trying to get to know all the parts of my city that I hadn’t known before.
   What were a few major changes in you life?
   All of a sudden there was much more to do, much more to explore because by that time I knew East Berlin very well. I had been living there for about ten years. I knew all the theatres and the concert halls and obviously the zoo, the museums. All of a sudden there was a second set of all these institutions and facilities on the other side very worth exploring.
   Did your perspective on the world change after the Wall fell?
   Yeah, it did. I could now travel and see the world for myself. Before that I had to rely on books and movies and documentaries, and now I could see the world with my own eyes.
   Did the Wall fall at the right time? Did it happen the right way?
   Interesting question…..at the right time? Well, it could’ve probably fallen earlier, which would’ve improved many people’s lives, people who lost their job after the fall. There probably isn’t a perfect time suiting everyone. I guess it was time for it to disappear.
   Did you(or do you) in any ways, wish that the Wall still remained?
   No, I don’t. I know people who do; but honestly speaking, I don’t think anyone would really wish it back, seriously. There may be times when people say, “Well, life was better under the Wall.” But they may have forgotten all of the times they were bitterly complaining about it and about all the hardships in the East. So I think for most people it was a good thing the Wall went.
   How long did it take for your life to feel normal again?
   Hmmm, I really don’t know.
   In 1989 did you feel that the people of Germany immediately unified or that it would take some time?
   No, it was very obvious that it would take quite a bit of time. From that time on, 89-1990, people started speaking about the Wall in the Heads or the Wall in the Minds. I don’t think this is gone even today. It is very strange how even kids, like teenagers
   who were born after the Wall; still speak of Ossis and Wessis and still differentiate between people from the different parts of Berlin although they’ve never seen it divided. Germany has not completely grown together I would say.
   Can you describe some successes and failures of the integration?
   A success was obviously infrastructure. That was a really, comparatively easy thing to do. To connect the streets and the train system, the subways, all the mass communication. A more difficult thing was to integrate the public service and the institutions on both sides of the country. Education was an area where the West German system was just imposed on the East German one and many people now think that the system in the East was actually better and should’ve been kept. The same is true of health care where there was a very well run system in the East, which was totally smashed and is now being partly rebuilt after it has turned out that it isn’t all that bad. In terms of people living together, many were, of course, happy to be reunited with their families. Others never had families in the West but got to know people from the West on their jobs, and these personal contacts helped the country a lot to grow together again.
   Is the German government doing enough to ensure equal opportunities for all Berliners?
   I think it is trying very hard, but there are still areas where there are maybe equal opportunities but not equal conditions. For example, there is still a different pay on both sides of the Wall. There are pay scales separate for East and for West Berliners.
   Are formally East and West sectors equally represented in the political arena?
   Well, they are in terms of votes but the majority of politicians are West German
   To what extent do easterners and westerners feel united as one Germany?
   Do you want to know in terms of numbers to what extent?
   …..No.
   It’s a generational thing I would say. Elderly East and West Germans who grew up under totally different systems and who’ve led separate lives still feel pretty separate. They know they are reunited, but still they don’t share the same experience; while with young people who’ve grown up in the same country and share a lot of experiences, I think they feel more united.
   If you were a member of the German government from 1989 – present, what would you have done differently to ease the transition to one Germany?
   I would have given more East Germans a say. I would have set up commissions with equal representation. I would have tried to listen to East Germans more, and I would have also tried to access East German institutions in an objective way, trying to save what was worth saving rather than just destroying everything and building up something else. Rather than assuming that what the West had was perfect so it had to be imposed on the East without even taking a look at what they had there.
   So as an East German do you feel kind of slighted on the whole reunification process?
   Yeah, I would think so.
   Today (18 years later) what significant differences do you notice? In what ways is Berlin a better or worse place to live?
   Many West Berliners would say Berlin is a less desirable place to live in. It started in ‘89 when West Berliners complained about the Ost Berliners with their stinky truggies clogging their streets and polluting their air in West Berlin. They also lost lots of government subsidies. When the wall was still in place, the West German government tried to encourage people to continue living in West Berlin, although that was an island in the middle of East Germany and it was hard and inconvenient to travel across East Germany to visit relatives and other parts of West Germany. So people were paid very well in West Berlin and many companies received subsidies, and all these were removed after unification. Many companies had to close down because they really relied on those subsidies, so maybe 30-40% of the industrial jobs in West Berlin got lost. So many people in the West actually regret that their lives were better when the Wall was still there. On the other hand, now they’ve got the country surrounding Berlin and they can travel much more free to Brandenburg or Potsdam. There are no more border checks or anything, and I think they also appreciate it. The feeling of freedom to go wherever they want on their weekends rather than being confronted with a border regime. Of course, for everyone in Berlin it is a bonus to have access to the cultural, scientific institutions on both parts of the Wall. All the museums, all the theaters and opera houses rather than just a part of them.
   Would you describe Berlin as a unified city today?
   Yes.
   What are the primary challenges facing Berlin today? How much are these challenges a result of the partition?
   Berlin is economically struggling. In a way that is due to the partition because much of the industry that Berlin had before the Wall was subsidized, so it was artificially kept alive and efficient. Once this industry is gone it is very difficult to attract new industries because Berlin doesn’t only have to compete with locations elsewhere in Germany, but also with the Eastern European neighbors that Berlin is very close to. If cities in Poland or the Czech Republic offered better subsidies and cheaper workers, then companies would be much more attracted by them, but by Berlin. No one feels obliged anymore to create jobs in Berlin, mainly because this is a front chair city. That is something that needs to be done. More jobs have to be created in Berlin. The city has to be made economically more buyable. It is culturally, artistically very attractive. It is a thriving Metropolis, but it is economically not really buyable.
   In conclusion, what should young people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the Wall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
   Young people need to understand what led to the construction of the wall. They need to know why it continued to exist for such a long time. It would also be good for them to know how the Fall of the Wall came about and to learn the lesson that it is actually possible to change things which seem totally eternal and unchangeable. They should really appreciate the freedom of their country and the opportunity a unified Germany offers to them.
   Just a question to what you said at the beginning, what happened when you were detained? Were you locked in a cell?
   Yeah, we were put into separate cells. And border Stasi or border patrol officers, several people talked to them trying to find out what we had in mind. Whether we were either trying to escape across the Wall or whether we were taking photos of the border installations that were perhaps preparing for escaping. And then we had to put that down in writing and they threatened that they would inform our workplaces about it.
   Did the pressure lessen when they found out your father worked for the government?
   No, I never mentioned my father. I was over 18.
   Oh, you weren’t with your dad?
   No, I was with my boyfriend.
   Oh. Thank you.

2. OH INTERVIEW
   Interviewer: Ruth Friedman
   Interviewee: Willi Kundra
   Willi: My name is Willi Kundra. I was born in Berlin in 1933. I went to school starting in 1940 in Berlin. In 1943 I went to school in Silesia, East Prussia because Berlin was bombarded, and we had to leave Berlin. In February 1945, we were in Silesia, and the Russians came there. We stayed there until October, and then we returned to Berlin. I went to school in Schwerin and East Berlin. Since 1948 I studied in a French high school, and in 1954 I did my Abitur in West Berlin. This is why I was interested in France. Then I began to study evangelic theology in West Berlin.
   Ruth: What happened after that?
   Willi: I finished my studies in 1960. In 1961 I was on a vacation in France. On the 13th of August I read in the French newspaper that Berlin was divided. I returned and stayed ten days in West Berlin and came to East Berlin. I didn’t know how long the division would last. I became a pastor in GDR, near Neu-Ruppin, and later in Potsdam until 1997.
   Ruth: How did you feel about the rising of the wall?
   Willi: We anticipated a division but not in Berlin. We in Berlin were of the opinion that the division would not come to Berlin itself but around Berlin. So that the many refugees that came every day to Berlin would be hindered to escape further. At the beginning of August, every day more and more GDR residents came to West Berlin. It was anticipated that in order to end this flight some kind of barrier around Berlin would be built, and that is why it wasn’t very surprising that the wall was built, but it was surprising that it happened in Berlin because we thought that the six powers would hinder it. As of today, we know that the Americans were informed and that they allowed this border to be erected, so that there would be a division of individual parts of Berlin.
   As I said before, I was in France and then I returned back. I wanted to start in France as a vicar, and I could not do it afterwards anymore. I had to remain here. That is why it wasn’t easy to accept this situation.
   Ruth: On what side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living?
   Willi: I was living in East Berlin with my parents. I did not believe in the possibility that I would be cut of from the west and wouldn’t be able to go to France.
   Ruth: Please recall your opinions towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
   Willi: This restriction of mobility was only for the GDR government, for that way they could hinder the more and more citizens leaving the land. For me it was naturally difficult, especially during the vacation and holidays times that I could not go any more to the west. And besides, my sister lived in West Berlin and I could not visit her anymore. Also, I had many friends in West Berlin and I was separated from them for the first time. I personally did not support the building of the wall, but I can understand that the government had to put up the barrier. As I already said before, the reason was because more and more GDR citizens kept leaving the GDR, but in my opinion the western powers, Americans and French, should not have allowed it. This was a four-power city, but something happened that pushed the four powers in the city to do it.
   Ruth: Can you describe any experiences that you, or anyone that you knew well, had dealing with the Stazi?
   Willi: I didn’t know that when my sister came for the first time to visit East Berlin that as she went, the Stazi took pictures of her and she was accompanied. In the house of my parents, the people were asked if she actually had parents in that house and with whom had she spoken. She was exactly spied on, and it was searched if she only visited her parents or if she had done something else in Berlin. I knew that as a priest, I was watched, and that there were spies in the services, who listened to the sermon and wrote down notes. However, this did not disturb me further. As a priest, you had a certain amount of freedom, so that you could say anything you wanted, but you had to take it into account that it was all written down. This did not have any consequences.
   Ruth: How did you feel about your sister when you heard that she had something to do with the Stazi?
   Willi: It wasn’t until the wall came down that she received her documents, and she realized that she had been watched. I didn’t know about it either until she told me about it after the fall of the wall.
   Ruth: How did you know whom you could trust? Did you trust the media? Why or why not?
   Willi: It is hard to say. You naturally had to be careful to whom you spoke, and you did not know if the neighbors also worked for the Stazi. We listened mainly to the western media, western TV, knowing that it all was reported one-sided. On the whole, it was clear to us, and we were happy that we were able to have this possibility to inform ourselves. In Berlin, and the suburbs of Berlin, there was no problem to listen to the western media and news on TV. In addition, in 1964, three years after the construction of the wall, I married a woman, who came from the West. She came voluntarily from West Germany to the GDR, where we got married. She had many relatives in the West, who later on visited us in the East, with whom we had a continuous relationship. My mother-in-law lived in West Berlin, and she visited us regularly when she was able to. In the first few years, this was not possible, but later on, she was able to visit us.
   Ruth: How many years did you have to go through with this separation?
   Willi: The whole time from 1961 to 1989, until the fall of the wall. Three times during this time I had a possibility to go to France to church conferences, and to West Berlin for the silver anniversary of my sister and my sister’s birthday. These were short visits to the West.
   Ruth: Did the Stazi track you down on your trips? Did they send a spy after you? Did they follow you?
   Willi: I don’t know. I did not read my documents after the fall of the wall. I do not know what was written about me, who had watched me, and if someone had said something about me. I deliberately did not read my files because it eventually could have negative effects concerning the neighbors, since I continue living in the same place.
   Our daughters had difficulties at school because they weren’t part of the young pioneers and were naturally under suspicion, for their father was a priest. They were not allowed to continue to the ‘Oberschule’, after the 10th grade. Also, our second daughter, Gabriele, did not receive an apprenticeship, although the boss wanted to have her as an apprentice. She could go to a trade school first after 1989. Gabriele wanted to become a goldsmith.
   Ruth: How did your daughter deal with this rejection?
   Willi: Well, she was naturally sad, but she could not do anything against it, neither could we. We just had to accept it. The boss founded a firm; he placed her as a technical assistant, so that she could at least work, but she could not officially learn to be a goldsmith. She was not allowed to go to trade school. (He takes out a book.) Let me read something to you.
   “Case Study: The Goldsmith
   Gabriele is the daughter of a clergyman (pastor) in Brandenburg. She always wanted to become a goldsmith but was hindered from entering on her formal apprenticeship during the GDR regime because of discrimination against clergy families. She did, however, work informally at goldsmithing, and in doing so built up her skill and consolidated her motivation to pursue that particular career. After the fall of the Wall, new opportunities opened up to her: she immediately began her serious training in West Berlin and, being talented, made rapid progress. Because the start of her training had been delayed, she was in her mid- twenties at that stage, so rather older than the typical apprentice. In her first firm, she found that the commercial pressures in the new entrepreneurial society put a premium on speed of work.
   Though she produced work of very high quality, she eventually left that training firm because of the tension between her drive to produce fine work and the speed of output required to survive commercially.
   She then moved to another firm, and here – coming from a society of scarce resources- she was almost overwhelmed by the wealth of some of the customers and the value of the materials with which she routinely worked. For example, shortly after joining this West Berlin firm, she helped design and produce a high-carat gold necklace studded with diamonds. She had never seen or handled such rich materials before. The successful completion of such assignments was a great responsibility and, like all such burdens, brought with it nervous tension. Gabriele stayed with the firm until she completed training, and in due course took up employment there. Her job was stressful, but with a certain level enjoyable. She was good at what she did, and good at managing people. The firm, however, constantly tottered on the brink of bankruptcy and this led to a tense atmosphere within it. The boss was under great pressure and was often explosive and bad-tempered.
   Gabriele, a gentle pretty young woman with good communication skills, could have moved elsewhere, but although she suffered from the unpleasant atmosphere in work, she discovered in herself a capacity to endure aggression and sometimes to defuse unpleasantness. Being a Christian, she felt that for the time being she was `meant´ to serve in this firm and to bear witness to her faith. This she did, and in the process built up a solid relationship with her colleagues and her mercurial, explosive employer, and quietly contributed to improving the business climate and the day-to-day communication within the firm” (Rosalind Pritchard 145-146). 1
   Ruth: What happened to Gabriele after the fall of the wall?
   Willi: She could start to study in the trade school.
   Ruth: And where is she now?
   Willi: She works in Berlin. However, after the three bosses that had to close their shops because of bankruptcy, now she has a permanent employment with somebody, with whom she went to trade school together. He asked her to work with him. She is enjoying it, and he promised to let her work there until the end of her life.
   Ruth: All right, back to you and the fall of the wall. So, the 9th of November 1989, this was a special day. How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of November 9th 1989? Who were you with?
   Willi: I was here in our house, with my wife, and we saw the news on TV. And what we saw was so unbelievable, surprising, that we could not believe it. When we found out that the borders were really opened, we started to cry from joy. I did not believe anymore that the wall would ultimately come down. I had calculated that I would have to live with the wall until the end of my life. I had counted on it opening up a little bit, but not that the wall would disappear totally. This terrific experience of a long, cold division ceased. The next day I drove to my sister, who lives in Marienfelde, Berlin. The feelings we had that day are indescribable. The same night Gabriele went to West Berlin. Some relatives picked her up, and they celebrated the unification of Berlin. This was an unforgettable experience for her also.
   Ruth: What privileges did you obtain now that the wall was gone, and you could visit West Berlin?
   Willi: Not only West Berlin, but I was also able to visit other countries. I could visit France again. I could buy western books that was beforehand quite impossible. Books were smuggled; however, from my mother-in-law they were often confiscated as she was bringing them over, also theological books. She had to give up her Bible at the border, but it was returned to her on her way back. Now all these hindrances were abolished.
   Ruth: How did this reunion affect your job as a priest?
   Willi: Not much changed, but some new things were decided upon too quickly, in my opinion. At church, for example, we suffered because many people left the church. They left because of false information spread that said that they had to pay 9 % of their income for the church, although actually that amount was 9 % of their income tax. This terrified the people, and so they left the church. In my congregation alone, in 1990, over 500 people left the church. In addition, other things confused the people, made them uncertain, because of the rapidness of some decision-making that did not prepare the people. The advantages outweigh the whole, the freedom we have, but there are still some, who stick to the old tradition and desire to have the wall back.
   Ruth: Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down.
   Willi: I cannot describe it. It was so powerful. Like I said before, I cried for joy because it was so unbelievable. It was astonishing that I could experience it that the border was ultimately opened; that was powerful.
   Ruth: What were the challenges you personally faced after the wall fell?
   Willi: No concrete special challenges but some things have changed. I found it negative that after the fall of the wall many sects came out to us. They have tried to bind over young people, especially the scientology sect, and others, which didn’t have much success, like Hare Krishna and many new other movements, which have tried to make people to join in.
   Ruth: What other things gave you joy about the wall going down? Was it the money or food…?
   Willi: After the fall, I naturally received a higher salary. Before I had to live on with about 600 East Marks. Meanwhile, the salary went up. We were able to buy things we did not know about; fruits and vegetables from all over the world, which we had never seen before. There were many things we rejoiced about. But, in between, we have experienced the things which have had a negative influence. The youth got acquainted with drugs. Before it was good that they were not available at all in the GDR. Also dangerous literature, and all this New Age literature that the book market overflows with. A lot of other things can be added: criminality. Violence is causing people to be partly afraid to go out of the house when it is dark. Before they felt themselves safer in the GDR. But these are the dark sides. In any case, most of the people would not like to have the conditions of the GDR back, and they rejoice that they have a better life now, and they have many new possibilities to shape their lives.
   Ruth: How did your perspective of the world change after the fall?
   Willi: As a matter of fact, it was not very different, because we had gotten information through the western TV during the GDR times every day,. We heard the news and comments and that is why it was not different, but there was naturally more information available. We could get books according to certain themes that interested us, but my perspective of the world did not change through that because I have a biblical perspective of the world, which does not practically change. For the Bible foretells the future. We knew that back then, and we know it now, and we experienced it, since a lot has already been fulfilled and others are starting to be fulfilled. It is also new that there are many foreigners living in our country out of the whole world. That is not always good because there are people who do not have any future, who live in the edges of the society and have one culture. We have rejoiced that many Jews are living now in Potsdam, and we have contact with the Jewish people. Beforehand this was not the case. Before the fall, we did not know any Jews in the GDR. As a threat, we find that more and more Islamic people, Muslims, move to Germany, live here, and do not always give a positive impression.
   Ruth: Do you think the wall fell at the right time? Do you think it happened the right way?
   Willi: I’m not sure if it was the right time, but from God’s point of view, for sure. I believe that God had a role in it. I believe that He made it happen. I believe that God used Mr. Gorbachev, like He used King Cyrus from Persia, for the Israelites to go back to land of their fathers, from Babylon to Jerusalem. And I believe God used Gorbachev to tear down the wall to let people reunite. I remembered that we had connections to the other churches in the West through the sister-church partnership. There was an exchange; we took turns visiting each other. We wrote letters to each other, and in that way, there was a connection between East and West, between the Christians. Unfortunately, after the fall of the wall, the relationships discontinued, but during the GDR time, it was a big comfort. We are very thankful for these contacts.
   Ruth: How did the fall of the wall happen? Did you anticipate it to happen some other way?
   Willi: This is a theoretical question. One can wish anything, but one must accept the facts as they are. We are thankful above all that the wall fell without bloodshed that the government officials did not dare to chase anyone. These protests that occurred continuously in many towns, showed that the government did not oppress them with violence. Later on, we found out that there were places, such as concentration camps, for protestors against the government. None of this became a reality because everything unfolded so fast with the new development that took place on the 9th of November.
   Ruth: 18 years later, what significant difference do you notice in Berlin or in Potsdam since Germany has been reunited? In what ways is Berlin or Potsdam a better place? In what ways are they perhaps less desirable cities?
   Willi: The life in Berlin has two sides: a light side and a dark side. Unfortunately, there is much darkness: robbery, many drug addicts, many alcoholics, and some have already told me that they do not enjoy living in Berlin anymore, but this depends on what district you live in. There are districts in Berlin, in which people feel comfortable, and not harassed or threatened. In other districts, the people are scared; it always depends on the living quarter. Here in Potsdam, most of the people feel comfortable if they are not unemployed, and through that limited, but overall there are many positive things in this area. I hear that people like to live here. Potsdam’s population has lately increased considerably. After the fall many people left, especially young people because they had no work. Meanwhile, many new people came to the city, more than 10, 000 during the past years. That means people like to live in Potsdam.
   Ruth: Thank you very much for this interview. You have been very informative, and thank you again very much.

3. Transcribed Interview
   Interviewee: Manfred Puche (P)
   Interviewer: Faron Hesse (F)
   Date: November 18, 2007
   Divided Berlin:
   F: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
   P: I am Manfred Puche. I was born in the eastern part of Berlin in 1956. And I was raised in the eastern part of Koepenick for four years and we left the eastern part of Berlin together with my brother and my parents in 1960 just a year before the wall was built. Then I raised up in Baden-Wuertemberg in western Germany where I went to school and went to the western part of Berlin in 1988…no not 1988, in 1977 to study here in Berlin at the Technical University.
   F: Did your parents leave from eastern Berlin in 1960 because they knew life was bad there?
   P: Yes! That was the cause. My parents had very good jobs and we left eastern Berlin because they knew life wouldn’t be so easy and I think they knew that the wall would be built up there.
   F: And were the Soviets already there in eastern Berlin?
   P: Yes of course, they were there. That was the Soviet part of Berlin.
   F: Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division?
   P: At the time when I was in Berlin?
   F: Yes.
   P: What did you say it was about?
   F: When the wall was built…
   P: Yes.
   F: …you were in the west of Berlin. Correct?
   P: I was in the western part, but I was five years old. I have no personal reflection.
   F: Did you have any experiences traveling between the two sections of Berlin (east and west)?
   P: Yes of course because the first time we were back in eastern Germany (Berlin), this was in 1972 or 1973, together with my parents to visit the friends and to visit the old town and the old house we lived in and I knew it very well. It was very complicated and very dangerous for us to go to the eastern part and to be sure that we could come back to the western part. It was just a very dangerous thing, I think.
   F: And your friends, they weren’t allowed to come to the west, right?
   P: No, that was impossible because there was a wall. Only my grandma could come to us (in the west) because she was 70 years old and when the old people are about 70 or 65, they can come just one time once a year to visit the western part. Other people it wasn’t allowed because they could stay in the western part. That is why the wall was there. So that they can’t come to the western part. They have to live there (east Berlin) and only the older people, all the people that would leave their families in the eastern part, they was allowed to come to the western part just one time in the year for one month. There was no friends, no other relationships that could come to the western part, to visit us. It wasn’t possible.
   F: So you, the westerners, were only allowed to go to the east and the easterners were not allowed to come to the west. Only if you were 65 or older…
   P: Yes.
   F: …And what was your perception of life and politics on the other side (east)?
   P: All of us were feeling that it was not just because they can’t leave the country and they can’t tell their own opinion. They had no chance to travel on the western part.
   F: And they could only stay in eastern Germany and eastern Berlin. They couldn’t go anywhere else for the rest of their lives?
   P: They could go to the Czechoslovakia, Poland and to the Soviet Union, but not to the western part.
   F: So that included America.
   P: Yes of course that included America. Just on the eastern part. And Yugoslavia was sort of neutral and the most western country was Hungary. And it was possible to come to Hungary from the eastern part of Germany and to come to Hungary from the western part of Germany.
   F: So you could also meet your relatives in Hungary?
   P: Yes. We had some experience because Sabine, my wife comes from Thuringen, from eastern Germany. And she leave the GDR in 1979 and of course it wasn’t just a normal kind of leaving that she had.
   F: And where did you meet Sabine?
   P: I meet Sabine on the first time when we were coming back to the GDR in 1972 and I meet Sabine at the Baltic Sea, where my mum was born and I met her there at the beach.
   F: And so did you follow her back to the GDR?
   P: No. She came to the western Germany in 1979 on the basis of the Helsinki contract that was made in 1976. And then it was possible to leave as an eastern German girl to come to the western Germany for her fiancé.
   F: What was the Helsinki contract again?
   P: It enabled women who had fiancé in western Germany to go to western Germany and it was the same for men.
   F: And so when you met Sabine and you went back to western Berlin and she went back to eastern Berlin, you got the Helsinki contract and then she was able to come to western Berlin?
   P: Yes.
   F: Before you got this contract, how did you visit her?
   P: We meet here in eastern Berlin. On 1977 I come here to western Berlin to make my studies here. And so we met in eastern Berlin. I could come to the eastern part of Berlin and she could come to the eastern part of Berlin from Thuringen.
   F: Do you remember any examples of obvious propaganda in eastern or western Berlin?
   P: Yes, there was. On the television there was every Monday on the eastern television a T.V show called Der Schwarze Kanal (The Black Channel) from Eduard Schnitzler. And it was a propaganda against the western style of living and it was a typical propaganda T.V show. It was very interesting for the western part of Germany. And they took some scenes from the Tagesshau to show the eastern people that everything in western Germany isn’t O.K. For example, that we have so many people without work and the cost of products will rise up and all these things. It was a propaganda from eastern to western Berlin and I don’t think I saw propaganda in western Berlin.
   F: Were you able to get eastern T.V channels?
   P: Yes of course.
   F: Were people living in eastern Germany and Berlin able to get western T.V channels?
   P: At the border from the GDR to western Germany it was possible to get the T.V channels from the eastern T.V. But it wasn’t possible to get the western T.V channels in eastern Germany because of the depth of the country. At Dresden (eastern Germany) it wasn’t possible to get the T.V channels from Western Germany. At the skyscraper called “The Axel-Springer Haus” at the Koch Strasse here in western Berlin there was a large antenna pointing towards eastern Berlin so that people living close to the border could get the western T.V channels.
   F: So only the parts of eastern Germany that were closer to the west could get the western T.V channels, but not the parts that were further away.
   P: Yes. But it wasn’t allowed to make the antennas from the eastern buildings that they could get the western T.V channels. So if you had the antennas pointed to the western part, then the Stasis would come and say, “No, no you will get the western T.V shows here.”
   F: So the Stasi would fine you?
   P: Yes.
   F: Would the Stasi put you in jail too?
   P: Maybe they put you in jail.
   F: Do you know if Sabine ever got put in jail?
   P: No, never. She had to leave her University when I told the western government that Sabine should come to the west on the basis of the Helsinki contract. She was studying in Leipzig and then she got expelled for fifteen months. Then she came over to western Germany.
   F: That was because you told the western government and the eastern government didn’t like that. And then she came over to western Berlin and studied with you in the Technical University.
   P: Yes.
   F: Did you have any contact with the U.S military presence in Berlin?
   P: No. We saw them everyday, but I personally had no contact.
   F: Did you resent their presence?
   P: No. I was O.K with it.
   F: Did they help you in any way?
   P: Yes of course they helped us. Because without the U.S and the British and the French armies, I think the Soviets would come here to western Berlin and take over. I think they were very necessary for us. But I had no personal contact to the armies.
   F: Would they all just be in Zehlendorf?
   P: No, no. We have three sectors in western Berlin. In Zehlendorf there were the U.S, in Spandau I think there were the British and in Reinigendorf and at Tegel, the airport, there were the French troops.
   F: And they would just stay in their own sections?
   P: Yes, three parts and three countries. And the eastern part of Berlin was the Soviet sector. It was the Soviet sector that built the wall. It was the same situation like in the west, but between the western sectors there was no wall.
   F: So the west didn’t do anything about the east building the wall?
   P: They didn’t really do anything, but maybe you remember the pictures from 1961. When the eastern part built the wall, there come the tanks at Checkpoint Charlie at Friedrichstrasse and there was nearly a war between west and east.
   F: How did you feel the west was helping western Berlin?
   P: I felt they helped west Berlin because west Berlin was not able to stay alone without the western part of Germany and the western part of the world. It was impossible. We had no industry because lots of headquarters we had here in western Berlin moved to Frankfurt and to Munich and to everywhere. The western part of Berlin was just empty. And eastern Germany was surrounding western Berlin. When you were to leave western Berlin, you would have to go through eastern Germany.
   F: Would you go by car?
   P: Yes. It was very expensive to go by airplane.
   F: Were you afraid when you were driving through eastern Germany to western Germany?
   P: Yes. It was very dangerous to leave with the car because we had to pass two borders. The border at the west Berlin side and border at the side from eastern Germany to western Germany. It took a long time. One hour to wait there because of the passports and they are searching something in the cars to see if you are taking people over to western Germany.
   F: Did you ever bring over people secretly?
   P: No.
   F: Do you maybe know any people who tried to go over the Berlin wall?
   P: Not really, but I knew some people who left eastern Germany in cars using diplomatic passports.
   F: Do you know anybody who got caught trying to get over the Berlin wall?
   P: No.
   Dissent and Revolt:
   F: Did you take part in any of the protests in the 1980s?
   P: No. The protests were just in eastern Germany and eastern Berlin. We had no chance to protest because it was the Soviet government that played the most important role. We always had a passive role. We had no chance to come to the wall and say like Reagan, “Eh tear down this wall.” The protests were only from the eastern side from the churches.
   F: Do you think the protests in the 1980s among the eastern Berliners were more to bring down the wall or to get more justice within the divided state?
   P: I think they want to bring more freedom and justice in the eastern part of Berlin. I don’t think the idea was to bring down the wall. They just want to travel in a free way and have more justice and personal freedom for their own people.
   F: Did Sabine take part in any protests?
   P: No. We were in the western part.
   Clarification about Sabine coming to western Berlin:
   F: And Sabine, was she in western Berlin permanently after a certain period or did she always have to go back to eastern Berlin?
   P: After she was here in western Berlin?
   F: Yes.
   P: Well. She was banned for five years to come back to the eastern part. And after five years, 1982 or 1983, we were traveling to the eastern part and to visit her parents.
   Back to Dissent and Revolt:
   F: Did you hear Reagan’s speech?
   P: Not really. Only on television.
   F: When he said “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall,” did you have any immediate reaction?
   P: Yes. It was like Kennedy saying in 1962 or 1963, “I am a Berliner.” I think it was the beginning of the protests just from the western part, just from the U.S. I think it was also a motivation for the eastern people to make their protests. And all the American Presidents like Carter would come to make their speeches in western Berlin over the wall.
   F: Wait. So the Presidents were making their speeches over the wall to the easterners.
   P: Yes of course. (795)
   Some more clarification about Sabine coming to western Berlin:
   F: O.K. Now before I ask questions about the day the wall fell, I would just like some clarification on how Sabine went to western Berlin.
   P: O.K.
   F: So when you met Sabine at the Baltic Sea, you went back to western Berlin and she went back to eastern Berlin…
   P: I went back to western Germany.
   F: Western Germany. And she was not allowed to come to western Berlin until she got the Helsinki contract. But you were allowed to go visit her as often as you wanted too. And when you asked the Western government to get Sabine over to the west, she got expelled out of her university and then she came to western Berlin. Because of this, she was banned for five years from the east. Isn’t that good for her that she can’t go back to the east, except that she can’t visit her parents?
   P: Yes that’s it. But you can imagine when she came here to western Berlin, she was 19 years old. And so you can imagine yourself with 19 years, so you can’t see your parents for five years. You can imagine such a thing.
   F: What year was it when she was finally allowed to come back to the east?
   P: I think that was 1983.
   F: And then after that, was she permanently in western Germany and western Berlin or was she living in eastern Germany again?
   P: No, No. She is of course here with me in the western part of Berlin. We were living here in western Berlin.
   F: So she was technical a western German citizen?
   P: Yes. Since 1979 she was a west Berlin citizen. She was here and she live with me and we live together in western Berlin. Later we lived in Frankfurt.
   F: And that was because you asked the western German government?
   P: Yes. I had to ask the government here in western Berlin to let her come to the western part.
   F: But I thought that eastern Germans weren’t allowed to come to western Germany?
   P: That’s it. But there was a contract and it was possible. And I think the western government paid a lot of money for her. To let her go here to western Berlin. At this time, this was a very interesting time because the eastern government hadn’t enough money. So they, the easterners had a very good idea. They took the eastern people in jail and then asked the western German government, “Do you want Sabine? I have Sabine here in jail.” (This is just an example) “Do you want to have her?” And the western fiancés are saying, “Yes of course, I want to have Sabine here.” And then the eastern government said, “O.K, you can have her. But you have to pay forty thousand, so you can get her.”
   F: But did you have to pay a little bit as well?
   P: No, I didn’t have to. But I’m sure the government paid. And the more you are in jail, the more years you have stayed in jail, the more the western government has to pay for you.
   F: And then after 1983, after she came to western Germany, Sabine was able to go back to eastern Germany to visit her parents?
   P: Yes. That was possible for us. But the family, her parents, can’t come visit us in the west. They visit us the first time in 1984 when we got married. And her mum came in the spring of 1984 when Benjamin, our son, was born. And in the fall of 1984 when we married, her dad came the first time to western Germany. But just for two weeks or one week and just one person.
   F: At a time.
   P: Not both together. They could stay in western Germany if they came together. So you have just one part of the family who could travel to the western part at a time.
   F: So it was a measure taken by the eastern government to make sure that they come back.
   P: Yes. Hostage.
   F: So they could stay in western Germany and western Berlin as long as they wanted, except they wouldn’t have their other family members. So they would go back to eastern Germany. And that is how it was until the wall came down.
   P: Yes. And that is why the older people could go. All those old people would only cost the eastern government money, rente. This is because they aren’t working. That is why my grandmother and grandfather could both come to the west.
   November 9, 1989:
   F: Were you in Berlin at the time when the wall fell, November 9, 1989?
   P: Yes. I was in western Berlin.
   F: How did you find out about the fall of the wall?
   P: We had it on television in the evening.
   F: So you were at home on the night of November 9, 1989?
   P: Yes, on the November 9th we were at home. And we heard it on the television. And I was working in Wedding, just some kilometers from the wall. And the next morning, at the 10th of November, I went to the Born Holmer Strasse, at the border there, where you can travel from west to east.
   F: So that was like a border passage?
   P: Yes. I think we had four places where the western people can come into the eastern part and one of them was at the Born Holmer Strasse. Because of this, it was very hard for the eastern people to come through the wall because there are only four places where the wall was open. There was a door so that you could come through the wall. And one of them was at the Born Holmer Strasse and when I went in the morning there, because I work there, it was great. All the people from the eastern part came with their Trabant, a small car. And they coming here to western Berlin with a lot of people.
   F: Lots of people in one car?
   P: Yes of course. On the car, in the car, at every part.
   F: So the wall fell during the evening or throughout the whole day?
   P: No, the wall fell, it was allowed for the soldiers to let the people out. The wall didn’t really fall like “boom.” At the television, they say that there is an order from the government to the soldiers at the wall that they should let the eastern people out.
   F: Was this order from the eastern government?
   P: Yes. From the eastern government. And so all the eastern people heard this and they are coming to the wall and they say, “Eh! I want to go to the western part. Let me out!” So thousands of people were going out.
   Back to Dissent and Revolt:
   F: And the protests before the wall fell, it was because of them that the eastern government finally let the people go?
   P: Yes.
   F: And at what point did you finally feel the protests were achieving something?
   P: I don’t understand.
   F: Like at what point did you feel that the country was going to be reunited?
   P: I think after the opening of the wall it was clear for everyone that the country was going to be reunited. I think after the 9th of November it was clear for everybody that Germany would be reunited. But only after the opening of the wall of course.
   Back to November 9, 1989:
   F: Can you describe the atmosphere when the wall came down? How were western Berliners reacting?
   P: They were happy. All the people were happy at the western part. Of course they were happy. You know it was a great moment because all the people in Berlin here were happy, just happy. It was a great moment.
   F: Were you scared of any prejudice when the wall came down against the easterners?
   P: No.
   F: And when you first passed through the wall, after the wall fell, how did you feel?
   P: I went for the first time with my bicycle over there at the Ostdorfer Strasse. And this was a great moment because for the first time we could have a look over at the western part of Berlin from outside of western Berlin. It was a great moment because we had no contact and no possibility to go outside from western Berlin to see the western buildings from eastern Berlin. It wasn’t possible. But the eastern part of Berlin, the middle part of Berlin, I knew that part because I went there every some months and we were visiting the eastern part of Berlin because my grandma was still there. It wasn’t so new for us. But not just this part here, because when you are leaving Steglitz here at the south, that is not eastern Berlin, but that is the GDR. And we can’t go there, to the GDR, only to eastern Berlin. That was quite a different thing for us.
   F: So you were only allowed in eastern Berlin, but not outside eastern Berlin?
   P: Yes. We had to get invited to eastern Germany, but we can go with our passport for just one day to eastern Berlin.
   F: So what is it with Steglitz again?
   P: We were able to for the first time, see all these buildings in Steglitz from outside of western Berlin without a wall between us.
   F: And how were the living conditions in eastern Berlin when you went there? Like the houses.
   P: After the wall fell down?
   F: Yes.
   P: The living conditions there. I knew the conditions there because the conditions were just like in the GDR. They were very poor and all the buildings were damaged and the streets were damaged too. There were also the small cars, but we know it because of all the visits in eastern Berlin. It was just a big difference from western Berlin.
   F: Did any challenges arise in your daily life because the wall fell?
   P: No.
   F: So it was all just positive things?
   P: Yes all was positive. No troubles.
   F: And after the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in?
   P: I wanted to live in the western part.
   F: And after the wall fell, how did your perspective of the world change?
   P: Of the whole world?
   F: Yes.
   P: Well it changed a lot because we hadn’t the fear that the Soviet Union would come over here to the western part. We had no enemy at the time when the wall fell. And I think for the world this was a great time because we didn’t have all the problems to get a third world war.
   Challenges of Unification:
   F: And when the wall fell, did you feel that Germany would immediately unify again or could you tell it would take some time?
   P: I think all of us believed that it wouldn’t take along time for the country to reunite. I think it was clear that there was no chance to have a west and an east. I think it was clear for everybody that this country would reunite in a short time.
   F: Do you think the east and west united well, like was it pretty smooth the reunification?
   P: Yes, I think so. Everybody who is older than 18 years is a reunited child and I think we have to wait for two generations for all the things to be equal. And I think the problems are normal problems and I think it is O.K with the reuniting.
   F: Do you think that western Germans were ever prejudice against eastern Germans or do you think they all felt equal right away?
   P: The prejudice from the west to the east and from the east to the west was the same. Everybody says they are the Osies and we are the Wesies. I think it is the same.
   F: Did you or do you treat eastern Germans differently from western Germans or do you treat them the same?
   P: No, I treat them the same.
   F: You just call them differently.
   P: Yes. That is it.
   F: Was anybody ever prejudice against you?
   P: No.
   F: What significant changes did you observe when the wall fell?
   P: No real changes, except that we can travel to our family in the east freely.
   F: And when the wall fell, they would bring all the western products to eastern Germany, where they only had a limited amount. They didn’t have Coca Cola. So did you notice that the eastern Germans, who had never seen these products, were extremely surprised at how much variety there was?
   P: Yes. That is it and they are buying just the western products. All the tomatoes without any taste, they are buying this. And it took a long time, some years, to feel and remember that all the western products aren’t better than their own products. It took a long time, but of course they had no bananas. A lot of things they hadn’t had, like oranges. And all these things, they didn’t have them in the eastern part. And they are buying only the western products. But it took a long time for them to realize that all the western products aren’t better than their own products.
   F: Do you remember what kind of products they had in eastern Germany when the wall was there?
   P: They had almost all the same products like we have here in western Germany, but on the other side there are some products they didn’t have. Like the bananas and the oranges. They only had Cuban oranges, green oranges. They also didn’t have all the kinds of television.
   F: And the cars, what kind of cars did they have?
   P: They had the Trabant and the Wartburg. This was the cars made in the GDR and they had some cars from the Czechoslovakia. I think this was the Skoda. They also had the polish Fiat.
   F: Was it only small cars?
   P: Yes. It was only small cars. And the government had the Volvo.
   F: The eastern government?
   P: Yes, the eastern government.
   F: Were the eastern German citizens allowed to drive the Volvo?
   P: Yes. But only the upper class.
   F: So they weren’t all just equal?
   P: No, they weren’t equal. But in 1985, 1986 or 1987, there were some VW Golf and they were brought up to the eastern part. And there were some VW Golf in eastern Germany.
   F: Is the German government doing enough to ensure equal opportunities for all Berliners?
   P: Yes, I think so. We are doing a lot for the eastern part and we are spending there a lot of money.
   F: Is the economic status of east and west equal?
   P: No, it isn’t equal because all the factories, all the industrial things of the eastern part was all too old in the way of producing that after the wall fell, we had all the products from the western part of Germany. So all the eastern industry will break down.
   F: Do you think that the east and west sectors are equally represented in the political arena?
   P: Yes, I think so. We have an eastern chancellor, Angela Merkel.
   F: To what extent do easterners and westerners feel united as one Germany?
   F: I think we are a united country and I think it will take two generations to be really equal and to have equal conditions because all the old Stasi people, they have to die. So we have two generations who are born in the reunited country and so after two generations, I think we have really two equal parts. But at the moment now, I think it is O.K. We have a phase of making it equal and I think it’s O.K the phase at the moment. It’s going the right way.
   F: So you think the German government is doing everything it can to reunite Germany or do you think they are not doing enough?
   P: I think they are doing enough. We have a lot of people that have to leave the eastern part because there is no industry there, there is nothing for them to earn there and not enough work. But so they have to move to the western parts and I think that is normal. We have to move from the south to the north and so we have a moving from the east to the west and I think that is normal. And I think we will have some differences in the economic way, but I think that is normal, that is quite normal. And the people will have to move and to find the places where they want to live and have to live for the job and to earn the money. But I think that is O.K.
   F: So people are moving from east to west because of industry and more job opportunities?
   P: Yes, and they have to do it themselves and not the government saying, “No, no. You stay there and you are to go there.” The people themselves are moving and have to move and have to find their own place.
   F: The individuals then have to conform to the different way of life?
   P: Yes that is it. The eastern Germans have to conform to the western way of life.
   F: It is 18 years since the wall has fallen. Other than the actual wall falling, do you notice any significant differences in Berlin since Germany has reunited?
   P: Yes, of course. Just in east and west Berlin we have a really united city. It is really united. If you think about the U-Bahn and the S-Bahn, it wasn’t possible to go with the U-Bahn and S-Bahn to eastern Berlin. So we have all these things now that are reunited and we have one, just one reunited city. I think there are a lot of differences, but the differences are just normal nowadays. We have one big city and we haven’t a border. There is no border and the younger people won’t find the border between west and east.
   F: And how did the U-Bahn and S-Bahn actually work? There would just be a separate U-Bahn for the west and a separate for the east? They didn’t go over the border?
   P: Yes. There would be a separate U-Bahn for the east and the west. We had west and we had east and there was no chance to move from the western to the eastern U-Bahn. But before the wall was built up in 1961 there was just one U-Bahn and S-Bahn. So they had to divide it the U-Bahn and all these things from north to south. And while the wall was there was just at the Friedrichstrasse, it was the only station with a western and eastern U-Bahn. So you could move from the western to the eastern part just at Friedrichstrasse.
   F: Did they check your passport at the U-Bahn?
   P: Yes. You have to check it and you have to leave the western part just for the eastern part. But you have to remember that the station Friedrichstrasse was in eastern Germany. So you could go from the western U-Bahn to Friedrichstrasse and stay in the eastern part of Berlin, but go further to the western U-Bahn or you could change to the eastern part of the U-Bahn. It was very interesting. It was a Traenen Palast (Tear Palace). It was called the crying palace because it was the part when you are saying “good-bye” to your friends when they are leaving the eastern part. When my grandma come to western Berlin, she moves from the Friedrichstrasse from east to west. And when she goes back, she goes at Friedrichstrasse from west to east. And this was the Traenen Palast because you have to cry when you say “good-bye.” This was just a small building in eastern Germany at the Friedrichstrasse, but it was a border of east to west. Of course the U-Bahn would go through more eastern stations, but it wouldn’t stop there. It would just go very slowly and you could see at the station all the soldiers with the guns. And the U-Bahn goes very slowly, but it didn’t stop there.
   F: O.K. Can you still see a division between the east and west today?
   P: Yes. We have the Mauerweg (wall path) and you can see it. We have at the border here, at the Ostdorfer Strasse, you can see the border, just nothing. Just a forest begins and all the part from the Mauerweg, at the street, where the army patrol was. So you can see the border, of course.
   F: Can you still see part of the wall here, at Ostdorfer Strasse?
   P: Yes, of course. There was the wall and there were the dogs there on the leashes.
   F: Were the dogs on the east or west side of the wall?
   P: On the east.
   F: And there was nothing on the western side?
   P: Yes.
   F: So if you were a westerner, you could just walk up to the wall and touch it?
   P: From the western side yes, it was possible. You could touch it. But not from the eastern side.
   F: Would you describe Berlin as a unified city today?
   P: Almost, yes.
   F: What is hindering it from being a completely unified city?
   P: We have some differences. We have some parts in the eastern part of Berlin with some buildings and with some streets that are just damaged. And we haven’t the same level from west to east. We have in the western part, I think in the last 40 years, on a higher level built all the buildings and all the cities and all the streets and all the infrastructure. Not like on the east.
   F: So the eastern part is just more run down than the western part?
   P: Yes. In the western part, we have in the last 40 years we have enough money and we have all the buildings are private. So all the things are well done and they are in a good standard. At the eastern part, all the buildings and cities are owned by the government and the state and they are doing nothing there. And so you can see it today if you go to Hellersdorf and Marzahn, to the most eastern part of eastern Berlin, you can see it. You will see the big buildings and the skyscrapers and they are just damaged. And the streets aren’t so good and I think you can just see the difference between eastern and western parts. In these parts, Hellersdorf and Marzahn, you can see it obviously that it is just different.
   F: And is there a message that is important about the fall of the wall and the wall that you would want to tell people today who were not alive during the division?
   P: I think we have to thank the eastern people because the eastern people with their protests this was their job to break down the wall. And we, the western people, have done nothing. We couldn’t do anything. And so I think we have to thank the easterners for all their protests, their Monday protests, at Leipzig and in Dresden.
   F: Monday protests?
   P: Yes. Monday protests. Every Monday they had protests at the Nikolai Church in Leipzig and they are doing protests every Monday months before November. And they are coming with thousands of people every Monday. And we have to thank them, the eastern part of Germany, that the wall fell down. It wasn’t our, the westerners’, job, it was their job.

4. Interviewee: Paola Telesca
   Interviewer: Charlotte Lieder
   C: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
   P: My name is Paola Telesca. I was born in Italy, but moved to Berlin in 1985. A few years after German reunification I emmigrated to Chile with my husband, who was born there, and my two children. Two years later, however, we came back to Berlin, because we missed the city too much.
   C: On what side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living?
   P: I was actually living on both sides: From Italy I had come to West-Berlin, of course. After having lived in West-Berlin for a few years, I applied for a very special job as the secretary of the Columbian embassy in East-Berlin. When I got the job, I had to take up residency in East-Berlin, so I started renting a cheap 3-room flat. Because I preferred West-Berlin to the eastern part of the city, I also kept my old flat in West-Berlin. This is where I actually lived. But I guess you can say, that I lived in both parts of the city.
   C: Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
   P: Of course I did not approve of the division of Berlin. The whole thing was more ridiculous and absurd than anything else. Though I could move freely from east to west, my friends living in the east could not do that. There were many occasions when I had to leave them behind in the evenings, going over to the west, and I remember that that made me both sad and angry. Was the division of Berlin reasonable? I guess that question can only be asked by someone extremely naïve and obviously not around at the time. How can it be reasonable to lock people up within the country and threaten to shoot them when they wished to leave anyway. No, there was nothing reasonable about the wall.
   C: Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
   P: For east Berliners this is easy to describe: there wasn’t any traveling. As far as I’m aware, only pensioners could legally leave the country. Also, it is not correct and somewhat misleading to refer to ‘sectors’. There was nothing like sectors – except, of course, the fact, that legally West Berlin was divided in political sectors (American, British, French), but that did not play any role in daily life. East Berlin was not in another sector, it was in another country. When people from the west wanted to tavel into the east, it all depended on where the people were actually from. West-Germans were treated differently than West-Berliners, and non-German foreigners were treated differnetly again. I remember that sometimes I went into the east with some friends from the west. On our return we had to split up, because we all had to use different border checkpoints, depending on our regional backgrounds. It was quite horrible and also humiliating.
   C: What was your perception of life and politics on the other side?
   P: It is hard for a foreigner to judge people’s lives. What I perceived as signs of political life seemed highly absurd and stupid to me. I mean, you would see huge red banners claiming a political or economic progress, that was contradicted when you looked at any part of the sourroundings. To me there was nothing more depressing, than a red banner with some sort of enthusiastic socialist slogan, that is placed in front of some grey and run-down building. But even nature was sort of ugly: I remember that forrests in east germany were extremely badly damaged and looked sick and ugly. So, I guess I didn’t like it too much. On the other hand, I could always leave for West-Berlin and did so every evening. When I said good-bye to my friends in the east in the evenings, I would always get really angry, because they couldn’t simply come along. I remember that it never failed to amaze me to see how my East Berlin friends didn’t get angry, but took the entire situation rather with a lot of patience and remained unaffected on the surface.
   C: Can you provide examples of blatant censorship/propaganda on either side?
   P: Clearly and obviously, eastern propaganda was a lot of rubbish. I think it was tolerated not because people believed in it, but because they were severly punished if they expressed their unease with the political system altogether. I guess it was easier to tolerate absurd slogans that to stand up against them and risk jail or other punishments.
   I can’t see that the west worked much differently. There was also a lot of propaganda and – to some extent – strange forms of censorship around. In the west, though, propaganda seemed to be something of the advertisement industry rather than in politics. One propaganda thing I remember is the fact, that one of the former west berlin radio stations used to be called RIAS – Radio im Amerikanischen Sektor, and that they talked a lot about the ‘free world’, making RIAS clearly a propaganda instrument aimed at the East.
   C: How, if at all, did you resent the US military sytem?
   P: I didn’t – though it is stupid and a bit frightening to have soldiers around, in the end the Americans protected West Berlin’s liberty with their soldiers.
   C: How did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin? How were they hurting?
   P: The western world made it perfectly clear that they would defend the freedom of Berlin at any costs. John F. Kennedy said even back in the sixties ‘Ich bin ein Berliner’, meaning, if the East threaten Berliners, they threaten Americans and America will therefore step in. A former French president, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, said in the 70s: “La Liberté de Berlin, c’est aussi le nôtre.“, assuring Berliners of the support of the French nation. A very famours saying, I think by the first mayor of Berlin, Ernst Reuter, was “Ihr Völker der Welt – schaut auf diese Stadt.” I think this appeal to the nations of the world somehow succeeded and many western countries took a deep and profound interest in West Berlin and its political environment.
   C: Had you (or anyone you knew well) ever tried to go over the wall or escape to the other side of Berlin? What circumstances or consequences did you have to face?
   P: Yes I did actually.. But that was neither very brave nor very dangerous. Because I worked in the Columbian Embassy I had a special diplomatic license-plate. Though this doesn’t mean that I had diplomatic immunity, I was never ever controlled at the border. Also, it was during the last few weeks of East-Germany’s existance when lots of people escaped via Hungary and Chechoslovakia. There was a lot of disorder, and at the time I felt pretty confident that noone was going to check me. It was a good east Berliner friend of mine, who was talking about leaving the country via hungary himself and jokingly I said: why don’t you just get into my car and we’ll drive to West Berlin. Spontaneously he did just that and there was actually no time to really get scared or worried too much. Anyway, I was very young at the time.
   C: Can you describe any experience that you, or anyone you knew well, had dealing with the Stasi?
   P: The only thing I noticed was that everybody was really suspicious of anybody they didn’t know. I remember going to a concert once and afterwards there was a party at a friend’s place. After we had all arrived at our friends place, she secretly warned me, saying that one man in particular wasn’t known to anyone, and that’s why I should watch what I was saying. I remember a friend of mine, who also worked for the embassy, lost her red leather glove somewhere on the street. Two days later the police came by to her house and gave it back to her. This really freaked her out, because he hadn’t told anyone that she had lost her glove, which meant that she was being closely watched. In general I wasn’t overly concerned about the Stasi. I knew that it existed and talked carefully on the telephone, but I was never really sure how much of a danger the Stasi could be to me. Only much later did I realize that there were so many people working for them and I guess that means that the Stasi knew pretty much everything about me at the time. Again, I was young and naïve and, of course, in a very different situation than the locals.
   C: How did you know whom you could trust? Did you trust the media? Why or why not?
   P: Of course, the media couldn’t be trusted. Newspapers and TV news were so obviously biased, that it was silly even reading or watching them. While, by and large, East Germany was of a rather grim appearance, the news never failed to announce yet another victory on the way to socialism, be it in production, culture or politics. I don’t think anyone, except maybe a handful of party officials, saw any credibility within the media. Who did I trust? On a personal level, I didn’t make any difference between people from the east and the west. Some people you like, others you don’t. Those you like, you will trust. Mind you, I never checked the official Stasi files, so I couldn’t tell whether my trust was justified or not. I never had any negative experience in that respect, though.
   C: Can you create a picture of the general attitude toward the Russian officiers in Berlin?
   P: I can’t really answer that question well. Russian soldiers and officers were noticeably around. When talking to friends about Russians I noted a slight difference to people in the west: East Germans seemed to honour the Russians as those who had ended the war. However, I don’t know how much of the positive attitude towards Russians – of course there was the society of German-Russian Freindship and a fair few well maintained Russian war memorials – was genuine and how much was ‘officially’ prescribed.
   C: How would you describe the protests of the 1980’s?
   P: The protests were stunning. It was also brave, clever, non-violent and successful. I can’t speak in other ways than with deep admiration of the protests back then. Mind you, it needed a rotten and incapable East German government too, for the protests to succeed, but that doesn’t diminish the actual importance of the protests. Instead of fighting the protesters, the government officials seemed to hide from then. Years later it became obvious that this was actually the case: while the people were demonstrating in Leipzig and Berlin, the political elite took off for the weekend in the luxurious ghetto ‘Wandlitz’. I assume that the very old group of East German politicians just weren’t up for the challenge.
   C: Were you involved in any demonstrations? If yes, how? What motivated you to do so? If you did not engange in such movements, why not?
   P: I remember going down to the wall, mounting it and chipping it with a huge sledge hammer that someone had passed on to me. The general atmosphere was that of a friendly revolution – the people could now do things they were shot for only a few days earlier, without having to face any penalties. I remember it being extremely pleasant to actually hit the structure of the wall, the wall that had caused so much grief among Germn families, with a big hammer. Up to this day I marvel at the fact, that no person was killed or even damaged. Such gatherings at the wall, of which there were quiete a few in those days, were very fun events. Not so much political demonstratoins, but rather expressions of sheer happiness. I also very clearly remember that the most frequently expression of the time was “Wahnsinn”, since no one had a rational explanation for the things happening.
   C: Do you think that the protests of the 1980’s among East Berliners were more to bring down the wall or to get more justice within the divided state? Explain.
   P: It took about a few weeks for the slogan “Wir sind das Volk” (We are the nation), to change to “Wir sind ein Volk.” ( We are one nation). I think this answers the question fully. However, intellectuals seemed to prefer two German countries to exist, but as is often the case, common people have a better understanding of real life situations. Though intellectuals in the east were held in great esteem, peolple didn’t follow their advice.
   C: When there were anti-Soviet protests, how did the government tend to respond?
   P: I’m not aware of any anti-Soviet protests, either in the east or in the west.
   C: Did you hear Reagan’s speech? If you did, can you describe the initial reaction from the crowd when Reagan said, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.”?
   P: To describe the audience listening to Reagan’s speech at the time as “crowd” seems strange to me. Those present at the Brandenburg Gate were clearly a hand-selected fairly small group of people, who were selected, I assume, because of their positive attitude towards American politics. To me the gathering was organised as a reasonably clever propaganda event. Your question shows, that as such it was successful.
   C: How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9. 1989? Who were you with?
   P: First I listened to weird announcements in TV – but it wasn’t clear what exactly had happened, whether the fall was opened for good or only for a brief period of time. Later that evening friends of mine from East Berlin knocked on the door of my West Berlin flat, and you may guess the degree of my excitement.
   C: Decribe the atnosphere when the wall came down.
   P: It is impossible to describe the atmosphere to anyone who wasn’t there. Imagine all people being friendly and cheerful, sharing their exuberance with any stranger. West-Berliners used to gather at the inner-city border checkpoints in the night, greeting East Berliners with Sekt and applause. It was unlike anything I had experienced before or since.
   C: How did you perspective of the world change after the fall?
   P: The fall of the wall didn’t really change my perspective. Maybe it made more obvious the fact, that injustive won’t last over indefinite periods of time.
   C: Did the wall fall at the right time? Did it happen the right way?
   P: From my point of view any time was a good time. The sooner the injustice of the wall ended, the better for everyone. I think a lot went wrong in the process of German unification, but those are just minor problems, and we should be happy to have a unified Germany.
   C: What do you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
   P: I fail to see any advantages of the division. Maybe it was in some cold-war-way important that Germany itself, having been the culprit of the last war, was divided and had the iron curtain as its inner border. What I know for certain is that families were affected in very negative ways.
   C: How did the fall of the wall affect you personally? How long did it take your life to feel “normal” after the fall of the wall?
   P: I guess it was a while before things went back to normal. Everyone was bright and cheerful – and that was quiete a frightening experience in itself – but in due time people found back to their own miserable selves and that was welcomed a lot by me.
   C: Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down? Describe some of the successes and failures of integration.
   P: People have written entire books about the details of German unification. In my views the fundamental drawback was the lack of involvement of East Germans in important decision making processes. I think because easterners weren’t asked in many cases, it is easy for them to feel victimized and surpressed by the west. For the west it was in my view not really benefitial that each and every aspect of daily life was considered to be superior to the eastern counterpart. I think this made people from the west a bit arrogant towards people from the east.
   C: Is the economic status of East and West equal? If not, what can or should be done about this?
   P: Clearly there is a lot more unemployment and poverty in the east. This is mainly due to the fact that East german factories and production plants were rather old and of low productivity. Since the East had very different economic values – rather than accepting unemployment, for example, they made people perform low productivity jobs – it was foreseeable that not many East German businesses would survive.
   C: 18 years later, what significant different do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited? In what ways is Berlin a better place? In what ways is it perhaps a less desirable city?
   P: Berlin today is bigger and more open than West Berlin ever was. Many visitors from all over the world – and not just from the western or eastern world – populte the city and make it, in my views, a better place.
   C: Can you still see segregation between East and West today? Please give examples.
   P: Segregation between Germans is, like most things in this world, a mental disposition. I strongly believe that we can decide if we wish to feel segregated or not. I prefer not to stress segregation.
   C: In conclusion, what should young people today, know about the wall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
   P: Both the construction and the fall of the wall can only be properly understood when viewed in the context of the second world war. German separation was a direct result of the war. The wall was a direct result of the fact that East Germany had to be part of the eastern block and West Germany part of the wastern block. The wall was not just a border within one country, but it was the ‘iron curtain’ of the cold war and therefore could only be abolished when the cold war ended. Today we see a very similar situation in North and South Korea. An important lesson for me is that you should not trust your government too much. In return, you shouldn’t want too much from your government either. Wait a second, I just remember that Hölderlin, an 18th century poet, said it in a beautiful way: “Immerhin hat das den Staat zur Hölle gemacht, daß ihn der Mensch zu seinem Himmel machen wollte.“ (The state was turned into hell, because man tried to turn it into his own heaven.).

5. Shannon Howard interviewing Walter Salzmann
   SH: Hello, could you please introduce yourself?
   WS: Yes, My name is Walter Salzmann, I am an Austrian national. I have been working for the American Embassy since 1986 and I started to work for the United States Government in January 1986 in former East Berlin, Mitte. I lived in West Berlin and I commuted to East Berlin on a daily basis.
   SH: Ok, So you lived in Berlin on the west side?
   WS: I lived on the west side, yeah. And I went there by subway or by bicycle even. Into former East Berlin, where I worked at the embassy.
   SH: Did you support the division of Berlin?
   WS: No I did not support the division. I remember when I was going in for an interview on the first day in early ’86. I was interviewed by somebody, some police officer in the park. And that person wanted to know everything exactly what I was doing in the embassy. So it was kind of suspicious, you know. No, I have always been against the division.
   SH: Could you please describe the conditions people faced when crossing between the two sectors?
   WS: Well normally, you would have to go through extreme controls by the East Germans. Either by Subway, if you go by subway, there would be checkpoints and you would have to wait quite a long time. Then you would have to do the currency exchange. Like you would have to change Deutsch Marks into East Deutsch Marks. 1 to 1. The real value was much less. And if you went by car, for instance, they sometimes searched it thoroughly, they would take out seats sometime. Not very pleasant.
   SH: Did you observe how the children were affected?
   WS: You mean East Berlin children or West Berlin, children in general?
   SH: Yeah, In General.
   WS: Well I personally didn’t have children at that time. But children who grew up in West Berlin were kind of used to the situation they were in. That there was a wall eventually somewhere. That they would eventually end up at a wall. East Berliner children, it depends on the parents. If you had a liberal sort of thinking, you knew exactly what was going on. They wanted to become just like the kids in the West. They were watching Television and seeing all that.
   SH: Did you feel that West Berlin had a puppet-style government during the division?
   WS: Well, Probably in a way, yes. The way it was a puppet-style regime because it was controlled by the Allied Forces. But on the other hand, it was basically, you could say it was subsidized by the former Embassy capital, Bonn. Former German capital, Bonn. They funded a lot of money to the West Berlin Senate, so they could sort of survive, you know. If West Berlin had been on its own, then West Berlin wouldn’t have survived. So if it was a puppet-style regime, then the Allied forces could’ve always said yes and no to certain things. They had control but they gave a lot of power to the politicians actually. They didn’t feel it was a puppet-style regime, they didn’t feel it.
   SH: Did you resent the US military being in Berlin?
   WS: No, of course not. For the most part, West Berliners did not. Because the Airlift that took place in Tempelhof, helped the Berliners, well the West Berliners survive, you know. You are familiar with the airlift?
   SH: Yeah.
   WS: Yeah. No not at all. In fact, they were really liked. Ok, later, later than when business became a bit more less for young folks. There were demonstrations against Americans but generally I believe that they were not _______.
   SH: Were you involved in any demonstrations? Or did you kind of just stay out of it?
   WS: Well I wasn’t really involved because working where i used to be working, you shouldn’t have involved yourself politically. But I was always for the, for the upcoming demonstrations that were in favor of the wall being destroyed, in the former East.
   SH: Did you hear Reagan’s speech?
   WS: Yeah. That was funny because when Reagan spoke on the Western side of the wall, I was having my lunch break on the other side. And I was just walking up, up and down Unter Den Linten, the street because, I knew he was holding a speech over there on the other side. But there were really not crowds of people. What you could see was, um, Stasi people, You are familiar with Stasi people correct?
   SH: Yes
   WS: Walking in pairs, mostly males, walking in pairs with cheap leather jackets. And running shoes. And you would hardly see any other people, it was under the control. And you could just hear the noise on the other side of the wall, at least that’s what I experienced, you couldn’t actually follow the speech. But at the time I thought it was very courageous to say something like this, and I thought that politicians in general should be just saying things like that when they would come to visit Berlin but nothing new came out of this.
   SH: Do you feel that the protests could have done more to reunite Germany earlier?
   WS: That’s a difficult one because the protests were only allowed at a certain time. I mean, they started off in the former East. It started off in Poland, in Hungary and they were starting to become a bit more liberal. Then the East germans felt that they should come to ________ as well. I don’t know if it was possible. ______________
   SH: At what point, did you feel that the country was going to be reunited.
   WS: Well. Actually when the wall fell, the wall came down, you could just see, you could almost foresee that this could eventually be a capital stage where Germany would be unified but it wasn’t to be imagined by a lot of people. Unimaginable really. But it looked like people wanted this and nothing was standing in between
   SH: How did you find out about the fall of the wall?
   WS: I remember very clearly. I was having an American friend staying with me at my apartment in West Berlin right. He didn’t speak too much german, we were watching the news together, and he, we watching the news and we were seeing the top of the wall. And he said to me, Shawn was his name, Walt, lets get to the border, lets participate in this go see it. And I kinda didn’t want to go because it was half past nine and I knew I was going to work the next day. It would be a sort of a hassle, but then we went to the wall, and we went to the former checkpoint in Berlinerstrasse. There used to be several checkpoints that you perhaps may know. The Berlinerstrasse checkpoint was just for West Berliners. Checkpoint Charlie, famous Checkpoint Charlie, was kind of for all nationals. Anyway we went to Berlinerstrasse we weren’t being shown on television. They came out in the little cars and people were touching their cars, and hugging and embracing eachother, opening up champagne bottles. And later that night we went to the Brandenburg gate itself, where we climbed up the wall, 3 meters high and wide, well the real wide one, the round one in front of the gate. And we were there, well we got back at 3 o clock in the morning so we kind of witnessed it first hand.
   SH: When the wall fell, did you see anybody you knew on the other side?
   WS: Well, there is a few people from my work, they were also East Germans at my work place, yeah. And I don’t think they could believe it really as well. And it was amazing to see, yeah just people I knew, but they didn’t sort of have friends. I saw them and they liked it a lot.
   SH: How were the living conditions on the other side?
   WS: Sometimes you are poor, in comparision to the standards of _______. If you were East or West. But some people, who were the party, the socialist political party of the city, they were better off always. But they never had the standards as they had in the West. But the East part of Berlin was always better off than the West, where they called the republic. And the West, sometimes there were really poor conditions. They never really addressed it down in the south. They didn’t get television reception from the West. So sometimes these people were really naïve and had no idea what was going on.
   SH: Were you surprised at all, about the differences on each side?
   WS: Well I kind of knew a bit about the history. I remember the very first day when I went by subway to the former east Berlin and I wasn’t sure if I was in East Berlin and I was asking a police officer standing there and I said, “Am in East Berlin?” and he said to me, “You are in Berlin, the capital of the GDR” and it was a very clear statement and knew where I was. No, I knew about the conditions, I had some friends in the west who had relatives in the east.__________________, a lot of people were dissatisfied with the situation, the economic situation too because you just couldn’t get what the people wanted to get. It wasn’t available. If you wanted to buy a car or a television you had to wait for a long time, many years in fact. You know, its unimaginable in the West.
   SH: Did you face any challenges once the wall fell? Getting to work or anything else?
   WS: Yeah, there were a lot of traffic jams at the beginning, I know what you mean. It didn’t have so much of an impact for myself. But generally I would think for the Berliners. Berlin immediately changed completely because it was suddenly full of people from the former East. And then they got their, what they called the Berundersgelde(?), the greatest money, the got a hundred Deutsch Marks from the West Berlin Senate. And they came over and they got one of those things, one that they wanted to buy for a long time. Like you saw them walking around with one of those plastic sacks full of bananas.
   SH: After the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in?
   WS: The West.
   SH: What did it mean to you personally when the wall fell?
   WS: Well personally I felt that it was a good thing because it felt that liberty would come and was justified. I thought generally that the GDR germans were expressed(?) and I felt it was time for change and it was surprising that it didn’t come about sooner.
   SH: If you could’ve done something different on November 9th what would you change or would you change anything at all?
   WS: Well, thinking about it now, it was my understanding, lots of peoples understand that people in the GDR, former GDR wanted to have more freedom. They wanted to be able to buy things, televisions, they wanted to know what was happening in the West. So in the old GDR days the East German government would have gradually opened themselves a little bit more, there might have not been so much pressure, which lead to the outburst, which then, where unification hadn’t been taking place because there was so much pressure.
   SH: How did you perspective of the world change after the fall?
   WS: Well personally I felt, wow, I thought that people are learning from history. Peaceful revolution is a great thing. The world was going to be better. That’s what I thought then. Things like the weather change too much, politics are a difficult field.
   SH: Do you think the wall fell at the right time?
   WS: I think the wall fell at the right time, it was, it had to do with what politicians were in power then. If Gorbachev hadn’t been in charge of the soviet union then, it may not have been possible. And if Chastikovich, the german chancellor was very much in favor of unity as well. And that’s how it took place because it was the right thing at the right time. And the American Government was in favor of it and I think the French were a little bit hesitant because they were a little bit worried about a big Germany. But I think it was a time, was a small gap in history that this was ever actually possible. But maybe I think it was, a lot goes to Gorbachev who was in charge then. He had been in power then.
   SH: What do you think the advantages and disadvantages of the unification of Germany were?
   WS: Well, Germany in General or the city of Berlin?
   SH: Germany in General.
   WS: Well the advantages is certainly that people could visit each other and the country became one, like it used to be before. Because it was unnaturally divided by the war, iin ’61 I believe. And it was just a normal thing but then it chose how incredibly difficult it was. Because if you had been thinking one sort of way for forty years, for four decades, it controls(?) your thinking, you know. But I thought it was a good thing, that they were able to have freedom. And what was the second part of the question?
   SH: Advantages and Disadvantages
   WS: Well, it depends really, the disadvantages for Easterners were of course not used to the western system. And the Westerners thought that they could buy things cheaply like land and property. And they thought that they were overrun by the East Germans
   SH: Did you, or do you, wish in any way, that the wall remained?
   WS: No, defiantly not. But one can read that here, about people mentioning that. The former east sometimes gets nostalgic feeling but you have to analyze that and realize people are doing better now. Even though quite a lot of people lost their jobs in the former East because lot of these factories have been shut down and the unemployment rate is very high in the former east. But I would like to see the ___________________
   SH: How long did it take your life to feel normal after the wall?
   WS: Well I personally didn’t feel that great of an impact. So, when we got used to it, we could quickly commute through former East German autobahns stretching to the west. Because it had been in your system going to the west, it meant you had to physically go through the East German corridor on the autobahn. No, it became normal quite quickly.
   SH: In 1989, do you feel that Germany immediately unified or could you tell it would take some time for Germany to become whole?
   WS: Oh, I could tell that it would take some time. I remember telling my friend, my American friend, Shawn, when we were at the wall, when I saw people kissing and hugging each other and embracing each other and celebrating. I was telling Shawn maybe this German- German love may not last forever, you know. Once it comes to problems, it’s going to become difficult. No, I thought that it would take some time. But like some politicians promised, we should call chancellor Kohl, chancellor Kohl to say that there will be Germans _____blossoming_______ that I will ask if that would take place immediately, it would take some time.
   SH: Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall fell.
   WS: Its still not completely integrated, it just takes a long time. I mean it takes years, it’s so much better than what it used to be, the first years at the beginning. But in the former east, if you had doctrinated or you had a philosophy for forty years, like four decades, its you way of life, your thinking. You can’t sort of get rid of it immediately. A lot of people protested to have more freedom and more economic freedom. I mean freedom. And be able to buy things from the West. The young folks have a big advantage. People like your age perhaps grew into it and its so much easier for them, the situation.
   SH: Describe the successes and failures of the integration.
   WS: the failures, perhaps in the beginning was when they… it’s a difficult thing, When they closed up the a lot of these factories, lots of people sort of lost their jobs. And some of these factories were bought by Western, Multi National companies. And those folks in the former GDR, they weren’t used to the Western system, you know, the capitalistic system because the socialistic system doesn’t necessarily work as hard as here, as they did in the West because you were paid for quality in the west. In the East, most people just wanted to get their last quota of rice, you know. And they didn’t feel they should work harder because they wouldn’t get anything out of it. So a lot of people were finding it very hard. Maybe that transition could be a bit more smooth. And now successes?
   SH: Successes and failures.
   WS: Of course the construction of ___________ Infrastructure. They were able to get good autobahns and roads and there was so much money put into so much things. So the majority, the great majority of people gained from that.
   SH: What signifigant changes did you notice after the wall fell?
   WS: Well Berlin in general, so many more buildings, so many more buildings a lot of buildings were renovated. That’s what you could notice immediately in Berlin. And going into the countryside it was the same as the cities, you could, whether you went to these cities before, was just literally grays, then you could notice that things change, that things were renovated. That there was, investments taking place, for the better.
   SH: Is the German government doing enough to ensure equal opportunities for all Berliners?
   WS: I think the German government is trying hard to do enough, but they may not be enough because that’s why you get a lot of complaints from former Easterners. And there is also a lot of people voting for this former socialist party. There is a lot of former East Germans who vote for that because they feel they represent them better than the former West German parties.
   SH: Is the economic status of the East and West equal?
   WS: Almost
   SH: Almost?
   WS: Almost, yeah. There still is this gap between salaries, the salaries in the former East are a little bit lower than the former West. But then they say this is justified because the housing is cheaper, generally. Its cheaper in the former East and the living standard is a little bit cheaper. But they are working on something new. They will get this sorted out, within the next year.
   SH: What is your solution to this?
   WS: Well, I’m not really a politician and I don’t really have a solution but its just, it’s a lot of problems, people are finding work. The unemployment rate is higher in the East than it is in the West, that’s why a lot of people go away from the East and they go to the West. There are stretches of land where there’s lot of unemployment. There’s a lot of unemployment amongst the youth, its also a dangerous thing because, especially amongst the men because the women are sometimes more educated when you go to the West as well. They are much more prone to __(lead us much more???)____ and all that. It’s a, politics the thing, you have to invest a lot of, do a lot of programs and just see that you get these committees working but economically, I don’t know, you have to invest a lot of money too. There will always be successful investments, in former Thuringia, they have car companies now, or in Saxony, they are doing quite well. But I think the northern state of Mecklenburg – Volpommern is not doing too well and Brandenburg and Saxony aren’t doing well either.
   SH: Are they equally represented in the political area?
   MS: As I said, the former East Germans, a lot of them are still voting for the former socialist unity party. Which now they call themselves the Lefties party. But they are represented in the governments in the local Bundeslande governments.
   SH: To what extent do easterners and westerners feel united as one?
   WS: I think our generation doesn’t feel much of difference anymore, but the older folks still realize that there’s a difference, but its much better now. As I said at the beginning, it will take some time, it takes longer than people think, it takes atleast a generation, at the beginning, they promised that it would only take a couple of years, everything would be just like it is in the west. It’s impossible, it was a very extreme connection from West Germany, to put so much money into the former East. It just cost a lot of money.
   SH: If you were a member of the German government from 1989 – present, what would you have done differently to ease the transition to one Germany?
   WS: Yeah, that’s the past message before. If the East German government had been prepared to open gradually and had let a bit more freedom into the country, then we wouldn’t have come to this outburst. But perhaps the politicians shouldn’t have promised as much as they did. To have their hopes too high for their peoples sometimes. If you have too high expectations then you get easily frustrated if it doesn’t go that way. But the time was, it was the right time for it to be taking place.
   (Then the tape recorder stops and the rest of the interview was not recorded)

6. AF: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised, and briefly sketch your life to the present.
   MG: My name is Marcus Gladrow. I was born in 1963 in South Western Germany. This area is called Badenwuerttemberg. I was born in the city of Mosbach. I stayed there until my 17th year, and then I went close to the Austrian border and had a profession of a sculptor and I stayed there for 3 years. After that I came home to my home city and stayed with my parents for another 9 months. There I had my own business as a sculptor. Later I did my civil service in place of military service, and I studied at a Bible college for 3 years and then in that time I married. Together with my wife, I spent one year in Turkey. After that, in 1990, I came to Berlin together with my wife. I’ve worked the last 17 years as a councilor for foreigners.
   AF: On what side of Berlin were you living on when the city was divided and how did this affect you and your way of living?
   MG: The division of the city of Berlin didn’t affect my life too much but the division of the two Germanys affected my life at a greater impact because my parents were born in eastern Germany and lived there until 2 months before the wall was built. They fled East Germany and went through West Germany and were flown out from West Berlin into West Germany. I was born in the west part. Normally I would have been born in the east part. They left all their relatives and my mother left her parents behind and brothers and sisters and in the first year they were not allowed to visit them. But later when they were allowed to visit them we traveled as a whole family to see our grandparents. I can still remember when we were at the border control, the East German police were checking our car and our papers and there was always a feeling of danger. My parents told us not to say anything in order that we not say anything that might bring us into danger. They always feared we might be taken by the police and may not be released again as people who escaped from that system. So we were always a little scared at the border and there was always a feeling of danger.
   AF: Please recall your opinions of the time towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion was the division of Berlin reasonable?
   MG: From the point of view of East Germany, it was reasonable. It was a way of bleeding because the work force and young educated people left East Germany. For them it must have been reasonable, but if you look from the west side it was just another way of suppression. What was before, the system of free speech and the freedom of it all became obvious through the wall and through the border which divided both Germanys. So it was not at all reasonable. It was a big injustice done to the people.
   AF: Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling through the 2 sectors.
   MG: Because I didn’t stay in Berlin in that time, I cannot tell much about that. It is only what I saw in television programs and so on. I didn’t experience it myself. When I first came to Berlin, it was in April 1990, the wall was still intact. There was still control by the East German police, but of course if you have the necessary papers for both sides; it was already possible to pass. I never experienced it when it was not possible for the east side to pass into the west. I only know it from the other border posts like Ladenburg, where we had to travel through in order to see my grandparents and the other relatives.
   AF: How would you describe the protests of the 1980’s?
   MG: When we heard about people gathering to protest against the government policy in GDR, we all feared that the police will intervene and will use force and kill people like what happened in 1953, but I think that the church had an important role in it. It stayed peaceful. People demonstrated peacefully and the police didn’t do too much. Of course there were some use of force, but not as massive as feared. We were just amazed about the scale of the protests…hundreds of thousands of people protested on the streets, that the government had to give in and make more and more concessions. It was amazing to watch that.
   AF: What were the challenges that you personally faced after the wall fell?
   MG: There were no real challenges. There were only advantages. I love to talk to East Germans. There was a short time where there were very raw feelings between both. When they came, they got a real warm welcome, and I like to talk to them and hear about their life before and hear what their life meant to them. There was a bit of curiosity at that time. I remember the days when we met East Germans and talked to them. But a challenge, nobody threatened my work place for example. Some felt a threat to their work place because the East Germans came also as cheap labor and they may have felt threatened, but I did not feel such a threat or challenge.
   AF: What did it mean to you personally when the wall fell?
   MG: I took it as a grace from God to my people…to the German people. After 40 years, the wall came down; it meant to me that Germans really had to be punished for the evil of the Second World War. To the Jews, and the division of the two Germanys was such a punishment, and it was lifted after 40 years. I take it as a grace of God also. There were very joyful days; we enjoyed them together with our neighbors who were people from East Germany who fled through Czechoslovakia. We stayed in that time in West Germany when it happened and I remember they were days of joy, we were very overwhelmed with our feelings of what happened and what you could see on the television screen when we watched it together with our neighbors.
   AF: If you could have done something different, what would you change? Or would you change anything?
   MG: I personally, with my little influence, wonder what I could have done differently. I never rejected the East Germans. I took them as they are.
   AF: After the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in and why?
   MG: Before the wall fell, we lived in Kreuzberg. It was close to the wall and we had the feeling that it was like a backyard. There was not much traffic and it was quiet. I felt at home there. When the wall fell, the roads opened and all the traffic started to pass through. It became busier, noisier and it became a little uncomfortable to me. So we didn’t like to live there anymore. In the following years, there was a big change. Humans don’t like changes (chuckles), so we later moved away from Kreuzberg to a quieter place.
   AF: Did you or do you in any ways wish that the wall remained?
   MG: I didn’t wish it at any time for myself or my family because I couldn’t see any bad impact. If it comes to the foreigners that I was working with as a counselor, it had a big impact on them because all the factories and businesses that they were working in left Berlin because there was no tax advantage anymore. They moved to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and other cheap labor places and they lost their work. Nearly half of the Kreuzberg/Turk population became unemployed and I saw the huge impact on their lives, the hopelessness, and so I felt sorry for them. This is maybe the only reason I could have wished the wall remained, because in that time they all had work.
   AF: Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down.
   MG: If it is outward things like infrastructure or business or repairing of buildings and roads and so on, I think the integration was well on its way and is not much difference left behind between both sides. But if it comes to the thinking and the socialization of people or the social bringing up of people, there is still a big difference in the way they think and the way they approach life. It’s still visible, you can still feel it and there are still some prejudices against each other. They have prejudgments about the other side. Its “westy” and “osty”, if you use these terms, its critical, so the westerners think the east side is spoiled through all the help they got from the west. They think that they should shut up and be content with what they have, and the easterners think they are cut off from life and that the westerners are in much better condition because of the wealth they were able to collect through the years before when West Germans were wealthier than the east. The east didn’t have a chance to collect so much wealth such as houses and everything else.
   AF: Is the German government doing enough to ensure equal opportunities for all Berliners?
   MG: As far as I know, quite a number of professional businesses, there is still a different monthly payment. Of course people are not satisfied with that because they all want to have equal chances. The businessmen always say the East Germans are still not as productive as the westerners are. I question that. They want to keep the cheap labor.
   AF: Are formerly east and west sectors formerly represented in one political arena?
   MG: They are equally represented because the 5 new Bundeslaende are represented the same way as the west. If it comes to the system, the system is equal. But if their voices are heard in an equal manner, I’m not sure because there are only five and the other eleven; the heavyweight is still on the west. If it comes to business (?), I think the west part is much more represented than the east part.
   AF: Can you still see segregation between east and west today?
   MG: I don’t know how those who run businesses or factories, if they have a number of people to apply for a work place, if it makes a difference between an East German or a West German. I am not well informed enough to know if there is any segregation or if it comes to universities and so on. I’m not sure about that.
   AF: What are the primary challenges facing Berlin today and how much of these challenges are a result of the partition?
   MG: As I said before, many businesses and factories were moved to other places, so Berlin is still lacking quite a number of work places for its labor force so we still have an unemployment rate of 16% and even over. I think this is the biggest problem of Berlin, not to have sufficient work places for all these people. This of course, puts the people into competition. The easterners and the westerners have to compete for the same work places. Of course their feelings and everything else are rising through that competition.
   AF: What is the primary challenge that needs to be met in order to unite Germany today?
   MG: I think they need to continue on they way they are already going….because some representatives of West Germany want to stop the support that is given to the East…but I think it should continue until equality is reached…so I think it needs to be continued….until there is real equality…in the health system, the infrastructure, work places….anything you think of.
   AF: At what point to you feel confident that the country was going to be reunited?
   MG: From the first place…from the first moment. When the big joy…the overwhelming feelings of “We are one people” …we belong to each other; the division has to be removed…there was not one moment when I felt it was OK to be divided…so the confidence was there from the first moment and it was never questioned…if it comes to me!
   AF: What happened to make you confident that reunification was on its way?
   MG: When I saw the East German political system collapse…and being on the retreat…and when the gates were really opened and the East Germans could pass into the West…I could finally believe there would be no return to the old situation…to the old conditions….there was no way to pull it back.
   AF: What was your first emotion you felt when you found out that Germany had been reunited?
   MG: It was of course a process. There were first signs of it. For e.g., When Charbovsky announced through a simply procedure that East Germans could leave and pass into the West…when this was announced, it was very great….we could not believe it…it was unbelievable…our neighbors called us to their flat…and explained to us…we watched television…and we could not believe what we saw….what we heard. It was really overwhelming.
   AF: Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down.
   MG: It was great…it was such a big joy…I can remember we were in tears with our neighbors…we really dropped tears with our neighbors we were so overwhelmed with joy…because, as I said before…it was by the grace of God that this division was removed.
   AF: How were people on the streets acting?
   MG: I cannot remember in the past that people of West Germany were going onto the streets…but later I saw, what was done in Berlin…and how East Germans were received in the West…like State guests….like important politicians…that simply people were received like that…when they moved with their East German cars into the West….everybody was hating them…it was amazing to watch these TV pictures…but we didn’t see similar things in our part of Germany.
   AF: Do you have any friends who were at the wall when it came down?
   MG:Yes, of course.
   AF: Do you remember how they felt?
   MG: Yes, of course, for them it was even a greater experience than for us who were at a distance of several hundred kilometers.
   AF:Were you scared of any prejudices the other side could have had and what did you feel when you feel when you first passed through the wall…well….that question…
   MG: I thought before that it would grow together much sooner than it did…I had no fear of pre-judgment…I thought…I was very optimistic in the first place that it would grow together, naturally, and only later, the difficulties which were still there and appeared, became obvious to me.
   AF: Did you worry about your future as a result of the fall of the wall?
   MG: As I explained before, it did not affect my job or my personal future in any way…but only the people with whom I am dealing…those I am trying to help…so I saw the effect on the lives of the foreigners I am dealing with.
   AF: Did the wall fall at the right time and in the right way?
   MG: Maybe…it was not just by accident that it came down after forty years…it was unexpected….but when it happened, it was OK….I don’t know if it was about right time….I don’t think it was by accident…it was by Higher will…higher instance….
   AF: In 1985, did you feel Germany became immediately unified or could you tell it would take Germany some time to become one whole?
   MG: Of course, it was obvious that the differences would remain for quite a while…the optimism I had before…the reality corrected this a little….so, everyone understood after several months that it would take quite a time before differences would be lifted…and equality would come.
   AF: Is the economic status of East and West equal; if not, what can and should be done about this?
   MG: I don’t think it’s equal….some of the Eastern business were not as bad as the Westerners described them…they said it’s all old fashioned…it’s all unproductive and their products cannot be sold anywhere…they were criticized and this, of course, affected the people in the East…they worked hard their whole life for certain things and now it was counted worthless. Their factories were closed and leveled to the ground…like it’s done to the factories behind our house….there was big business and the Western business took over and they were glad to destroy the East German brands that were competing with them…and they wanted to take their place…so I think if it comes to the economy of East Germany, I think there was some injustice done to them…and there were wrong assessments which led to a sharp loss in work places…and this is still the case…East Germany has not recovered from that…and so I think there is still some support needed for the economy in the East part to grow and for the number of work places to be increased and the labor force can stay there and not have to leave and settle in the west.
   AF: To what extent do easterners and westerners feel united as one Germany?
   MG: I think the majority feels that we are one people full heartedly agree that the development and unification of both parts was okay and the way it was done was also okay and we have to live with the results. But there is a minority that suffered from the reunification and whenever they overcame the shock of when the political system crumbled and they never overcame this change. There is still longing for old conditions and old systems to be put in place again. I know such people who think it was better in that time and now its worse. They don’t like today’s system.
   AF: In what ways are East and West Germany still different in 2007?
   MG: The older generations of East Germans are used to the fact that the states supply everything they need. They expect the state to supply everything for them. They still have this attitude towards the state. In West Germany, one is more used to the fact that he must be responsible for himself; fight for himself and his rights and benefits. There is a difference in that attitude. For example, in East Germany, there was care for the little children, so all the women could go to work and join the men and leaving the house and leaving everything to the state. The state would look after their children, would care for their children, and so they were free for both male and female, to fulfill what they wanted to do. For example, women could learn the same professions as men, and could work in those professions and can get satisfaction from that. But when the system changed, this child care system collapsed. Even in eastern Germany. There wasn’t a place available for every child. The women had to stay at home to look after the children. It’s even more the case in the west. So there are two different systems still in place. In the west there are still a number of smaller places for the children to be looked after the whole day. Because in West Germany there was this thing that the lady should stay at home and look after the children, preparing the meal and everything. In East Germany, the look at life was different. And the difference still remains in some ways. The way human’s life should be designed or planned, it looked different from the east side than the west side.
   AF: In what ways is Berlin a better place now? And in what ways is it a less desirable place?
   MG: It’s a better place because it’s not encircled by walls anymore. Especially, the West Germans can leave the city and travel around in the neighboring suburbs and neighboring rurally areas for recreation; walk through the forest. They don’t feel like they are in a big prison anymore. This was a depressing feeling for the West Berliners of the time before, to be surrounded by walls and fences. Now they are as free as anybody else. This is, of course, is a big improvement. The other side is that all the businesses left Berlin and the lack of work places, of course, affects a life in a negative way. So you have the negative and the positive. If it comes to rebuilding of infrastructure and houses, Berlin is a more beautiful city now than it was before; it is a much more interesting city than it was before. There was a lot of improvement in that area. If it comes to buildings of streets and so on, Berlin is a poor city because of some failures done in one market. They had losses of billions of euros and this affects, in the end, everybody. So they have to save money and they can’t rebuild the streets as it should be done. So it depends from what side you look at it. The overall picture is, Berlin improved.
   AF: What is the main goal that needs to be met in order to unite Germany today?
   MG: for me, because this “right ring” movement, especially it’s roots in the east, amazing enough because socialism doesn’t give much chance for thinking, but the East Germans must have equal chances to develop their life otherwise the “right ring” movement will get many new members or many young people interested in their sorts and they will win quite a number of people and this is the biggest danger. In order not to feed the ranks with young people, it must be very carefully looked at, how to develop and how to support the east in order that it becomes really equal and that they don’t think they are left behind. This is my biggest fear, that the “right ring” movement, especially in the east parts of Germany will get a lot of support.
   AF: 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited?
   MG: Of course, the most visible differences are like, Potsdamer Platz and places which were left blank or were left empty before. Since the Second World War, there were houses in ruins and underdeveloped places and a lot of building is done and constructing. Berlins face changed a lot since then. If you visited Berlin many years before and you look now at it, you will not understand that this is the same city. It is very different now.
   AF: In conclusion, what should young people, today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the wall and its fall?
   MG: they should never belittle the suppression that took place in the east part and that life didn’t count to the East Germans system before. If somebody wanted to escape the system, they didn’t hesitate to kill that person. If somebody would raise his voice and speak out against the system, you would be put into prison, you would be tortured. This should never be forgotten and this was really a system of suppression, and dictatorship. It is a very great achievement and that people were freed from that and they should never be forgotten. The people should always be grateful that this bad system was brought to collapse and that it was removed from power. This is a really great achievement.

7. Alex Heinz
   10E
   History
   18.11.2007
   Interview Project On The Berlin Wall
   Interviewer: Alex Heinz
   Interviewee: Volker Heinz
   Alex: “Hello, my name is Alex Heinz I go to the John-F.-Kennedy School, I am in the 10th grade and I am working on a project: An Oral History On The Fall Of The Berlin Wall, and my part in this project is to interview someone. I have chosen to interview my Dad, Volker Heinz, on the knowledge he posesses about the Berlin Wall. Mr. Heinz could you take a few moments to introduce yourself´´
   Volker: “I was born on the 23.5.1943. I lived most of his childhood in a small town called Wuppertahl. In 1964 I was involved in helping people across the border and was caught. I was officially given a 12 year sentence but got out after just one year. After that I studdied law in London and in Berlin from 1966 to 1973. In England, in the year 1990 I got married to Sandra Tancibudek and then moved to berlin for good. In Berlin I still works as a lawyer and I live with my wife, Sandra Heinz, and my two children Alex and Sophia Heinz.´´ Alex: “Thank you very much Mr. Heinz. The fact that you helped people across the border sounds very interesting and I’m sure that we will discuss this more thouroughly during the course of the interview.
   So Mr. Heinz, first of all how did you find out about the fall of the wall, and where were you on that night of November 9, 1989?´´
   Volker: “I found out about the fall of the wall through television in London. At the time I lived in London to qualify as an English barrister, I was watching the news and the fall of the wall with long reports, interviews etc. After the news there were special reports on the fall of the wall.´´
   Alex: “And how did you feel when the Berlin Wall fell?´´
   Volker: “Well it was a feeling of utter astonishment, but at the same time of immense joy. Frankly speaking I had tears in my eyes when I heard it and saw the pictures. I had been, in the mid 60s, as a student involved in helping people to escape through the wall from East to West Berlin, so I had a special connection to both Berlin and the Berlin Wall.´´
   Alex: “And how did you help people to escape?´´
   Volker: “I worked together with a man who had great experience in building tunnels. When the period of building tunnels was over we managed to persuade a Syrian diplomat to smuggle people in the boot of their car through Check Point Charlie, and my function was to go to East Berlin, meet the would-be escapees and safely guide them to the point where the diplomat with his car would take them over. Since we wanted this method to work many times, I tried to ensure that the GDR citizens would neither recognize the car, nor the driver nor the car’s number plate etc.´´
   Alex: “And was this process successful?´´
   Volker: “Well, I believe it was. We managed during the period of 6 months to bring over the border some 60 or so people, but in the end, largely by betrayal, the method was discovered, the diplomat expelled and the GDR citizens and myself put into prison. I was sentenced to twelve years inprisonment, but after about a year, exchanged and released.´´
   Alex: “Thank you very much for these details. Could you describe the atmosphere when the wall came down, and how you felt about it?´´
   Volker: “As I said, I was in London at the time but I still had strong ties to Berlin, so I was travelling regularly to Berlin, and I remembered only a few days after the 9th of November I came back to Berlin for an extended visit, the atmosphere was truly euphoric, people crossing in masses from west to east and east to west. However, since only the border crossings were open, but the wall largely still standing, the cross-border traffic did not occur on a broad base, but only through these border crossings. One of the salient features were long queues of old GDR Trabant cars, coming to West Berlin.
   Alex: “Alright, yes, and were you scared of any prejudices the other side might have had, and what did you ultimately feel when you first walked through the wall?´´
   Volker: “During this period of joy and elation, we did not care about prejudices. They only appeared much later. When I first passed through the open wall, I was accompanied by your older sister Jona, I remember chipping off bits and pieces of the wall, which until today I keep in a glass jar.´´
   Alex: “And when you went through the wall for the first time, you must have noticed the living conditions on both sides – were you surprised by the differences?´´
   Volker: “As you know, I always lived in West Berlin after my studies as a lawyer, except for the few years I spent in London. When I crossed the border, I was not really surprised at the different living conditions because I was a regular visitor to East Belin. I went to concerts but also visited friends in East Berlin.´´
   Alex: “Did you ever worry about the future that you and your family had, once the wall had fallen?´´
   Volker: “No, I did not worry about the future at all, on the contrary, when the wall came down, I knew that I would come back from London to Berlin one day, which I did a couple of years later.
   Alex: “And your family?´´
   Volker: “No, your older siblings, Jona and Jacob, were not affected by the fall of the wall, as they were very small.´´
   Alex: “ And when the wall fell, you obviously had a choice to live in the east or the west, so did you feel strongly about which side you would live in?´´
   Volker: “Well, I never really contemplated to move to East Berlin, but professionally I did move. After returning from London in 1992, I rented an office right next to Bahnhof Friedrichstraße in Schiffbauerdamm. The idea to work next to the old border crossing, Friedrichstraße was at the time very attractive.´´
   Alex: “And how did you look at the world once the wall had fallen, did you think it was a new place that has reopened or did you think that the world was still the same with just the change of the wall?´´
   Volker: “The fall of the Berlin wall did not come from anywhere and suddenly, it was part of a process, part of a political upheaval, which went right through the east block. There was a general feeling, which I shared, that indeed the world had changed, that the once inpenatrable iron curtain could now be penatrated, and everybody felt that this opened immense opportunities, both on a personal level, like family visits etc. and on an economic level. There was a great feeling of economic euphoria, leading many people to buy properties in the east.
   Alex: “Since these economic changes had a great impact, how did you respond, did you buy anything in the east, now that you could walk freely?´´
   Volker: “Yes, I bought one of those typical Berlin Altbau Miethäuser, in Friedrichshain. I invested a lot of money to have it properly refurbished and modernized.´´
   Alex: “And did you think the wall fell at the right time, and that it happened the right way, or did you think that the wall should have fallen later or earlier?´´
   Volker: “For the wall to fall there was no wrong time. In other words, the sooner the better. So when it fell, ultimatley it was the right time. I also believe it happened the right way because it was not achieved by violence, but as a result of demonstrations that continued many weeks and achieved increasing support among the population.´´
   Alex: “Did you think that these demonstrations would cause violence from the police?´´
   Volker: “Yes, we all were afraid that the Volkspolizei, the GDR police forces, would violently interfere especially because some 35 years earlier in 1953, a popular uprising in East Berlin and other GDR cities was suppressed violently both by police forces and the Russian military.´´
   Alex: “And did you think there were any advantages or disadvantages of the division of Germany?´´
   Volker: “From a German point of view the division was clearly a disadvantage but from an international point of view it needs to be mentioned that there were quite a number of countries who feared that a united Germany would become too strong and therefore too dangerous for them. Among those nations was Great Britain.
   Alex: “And personally, what were the disadvantages and advantages of a unified Berlin and Germany?´´
   Volker: “It became quite clear that unification was a very costly affair. The transformation from a communist economy into a market economy basically destroyed the anyway weak GDR economy which meant that the West German economy would have to invest huge amounts of money to pay for the transformation. That very soon led to the introduction of a special unification tax which is still being payed today. But on balance I believe that the advantages, in the long term, will by far outweigh the disadvantages.´´
   Alex: “What are these advantages?´´
   Volker: “Well, first of all on a personal level it would be the end of the separation of families, but also on an economic level, it gives people, in the former GDR, the chance to achieve prosperity and economic success. It also, on a national level, allows German companies to grow much bigger.´´
   Alex: “How did the fall of the wall affect you personally?´´
   Volker: “It did not have an immediate affect upon me personally, since I only returned from Great Britain in 1992. However, when I returned, West Berlin had changed dramatically. Apart from a few vestiges the wall had disappeared completely. A building boom on a large scale had started, and the most obvious change was a dramatic increase in traffic.´´
   Alex: “And how long did it take for your life to feel normal after the fall of the wall?´´
   Volker: “Life never went back to what it was before, but it took some time to adapt to the new normality. Both people from West Berlin and East Berlin tried to continue their lives as before, but neither succeeded. Only around the turn of the millenium did a kind of common normality set in.´´
   Alex: “And did you feel that in 1989 Germany immediately unified or do you think that there were still some differences between the east and the west?´´
   Volker: “Only the greatest optimist would believe in immediate unification. However, at the time there was an euphoric feeling that unification would not last longer than about 10 years to finish, this turned out to be a fallacy.´´
   Alex: “Could you perhaps be a bit more specific?´´
   Volker: “The federal government invested vast amounts of money into infrastructure such as roads, railway lines, telephone systems etc, thereby facilitating transport and communication. That certainly helped unification. It certainly also helped that the federal government allowed East Germans to exchange their currency into the western currency at a very favorable rate, but the East Germans experienced by far more severe changes than the West Germans. The process of ultimate adaptation is still not finished. One must not forget that the East German industry was basically destroyed and a huge process of restitution of properties had set in and that East Germany suffered under severe levels of unemployment.´´
   Alex: “ Alright, I think I understand that better, but I still have other questions. Is the economic status of east and west now equal, and if not, what could be done about this?´´
   Volker: “The economic status of west and east is not equal. Historically speaking, it never was, and therefore is unlikley ever to be. Nevertheless, some countries of the former GDR have done much better than others. For example the region of Saxony is, on the whole, very successful while the region of Meklenburg-Vorpommern is relatively unsuccessful. Both the German and local governments are trying to even out the differences, largely by direct financial support and by trying to attract new businesses to invest in the east.´´
   Alex: “And to what extent do easterners and westerners feel united as one Germany?´´
   Volker: “In my view, majorities both in the east and the west have accepted that they are part of one country now, although there are still considerable minorites who would disagree: on the western side they are complaining about the huge sums of money tranferred to the east, whilst on the eastern side people complain about their loss of political influence, loss of land, difference in income, and what they perceive as the West German arrogance, referring to many people who were transferred from the west to the east as new industrial managers, new government officials including judges.´´
   Alex: “ And what do you feel personally about this?´´
   Volker: “I believe that the views of the minorities that I have just described will not succeed to win majorities. However the governments must work carefully to integrate as many people as possible and to differentiate between prejudices and justified complaints. Where such complaints are justified, they need to be addressed.´´
   Alex: “So if you were a member of the German government from 1989 to the present, what would you have done differently to ease the transition to one Germany?´´
   Volker: “I would have tried to make daily life of ordinary people easier, while at the same time making it harder for the old political elite to reassert itself in disguise.´´
   Alex: “Could you be slightly more specific and give some examples?´´
   Volker: “Well on the local government level many former members of the communist party have regained influence by joining western style parties without having changed their political views dramatically. Many former communist government officials including a number of judges were allowed to continue to work in their former functions of influence.´´
   Alex: “Well now, 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited?´´
   Volker: “Life has become much more international. Berlin has become a cultural magnet for young people both from Europe and further abroard. This shows in a big number of new hotels and new restaurants, and other places of entertainment. And Berlin, formerly the German capital of traditional heavy industry, is reinventing itself as the center of modern, clean industrial activities like biochemistry, medicine, film production, etc.´´
   Alex: “I see you’re very observant on the niceities of how Berlin has become a better place, but in what ways is it now a less desirable city?´´
   Volker: “I already mentioned the noticeble increase in traffic, causing severe parking problems in the city, and a general slow down in the speed of traffic. Also, there is an increase in the crime rate.´´
   Alex: “Alright, thank you for your time to answer these questions, and in conclusion, what should young people do today who were not alive during the time of partition?´´
   Volker: “I think the most important lesson to learn is that people, in the long term, will never accept tyranny, in whatever shape or form. Soviet style communism that prevailed in the former GDR was a kind of tyranny. The wall was built not to protect the GDR against western attacks, but to prevent its own people from leaving the country. Therefore, the biggest gain, apart from positive economic changes, for the citizens of the former GDR is the newly won freedom both in political terms and in everyday life.´´
   Alex: “Thank you again for answering these questions, it was very nice of you, giving up your time for this, and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.´´

8. Divided Berlin
   Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
   My name is Moritz Müller. I was born in West Berlin, in 1955. I went to school and university in Berlin, lived in the US as school kid and student each for one year and finally graduated as an architekt. I am practising my profession since then and I am living with my family, with my wife and 2 childern, in Berlin, Charlottenburg.
   On what side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided and how did this affect you and your way of living?
   I lived in the west side of Berlin in Charlottenburg and in the time of the wall our life was limited to the surface of West Berlin. We could not leave the city wihtout visa or other allowances without going outside.
   Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
   The division of the city was never accepted by myself or the people that I knew but it was a given condition witch we as individuals were not able to influence.
   Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
   There was a difference between West Berliners and West Germans. The West Berliners were treated, due to their own contitution, in a more difficult way. West Berlienrs had to ask for special visa to travel into East Germany three days ahead, meanwhile the West Germans could receive their visa directly on the border. To go to the West there were 3 high way routes one to Hamburg, the northern route, one to Hannover, the western route and the to the south to Nürnberg through Hof. These were transit conditions where you did not have to apply for a visa. But you were not allowed to drive off the road.It was like driving through a chanel.
   Did you have any family members or friends living on the other side? How did the division come between your friendships or your relations to family members?
   My gradnparents, the parents of my father, lived in Halle an der Saale which is a town one hour southwest of Berlin. Until 1970 it was not possible for Westerners to drive into East Germany at all. Of course East Germans were not allowed to leave East Germany either. But then during the time of Willy Brandt, the so called Ostverträge, the East Treaties, were made, which arranged regulations to allow West Berliners and West Germans to travel for 30 days into East Germany, again with the condition of visa applications.
   How were children affected by the partition of the city?
   The particion of the city made it almost impossible for friendships between children from the different sides unless there were family relations were the children would meet through their parents.
   What was your perception of life and politics on the other side?
   The socialist regime by the SED even though socialistic-communistic always seemed very absolutistic and like a dictatorship.
   Can you provide examples of blatant censorship/propaganda on either side?
   A very extreme example of propaganda on the east side was a television show by a journalist by the name of Karl Eduard Schnitzler. It was called „Der Schwarze Kanal“.
   For West Berliners…
   How, if at all, did you feel that West Berlin had a puppet-style government during the partition?
   At the time of the cold war the West Berlin government had to represent the political western position furthest east. Due to the condition of the wall and the island situation within East Germany, mayors like Ernst Reuter, Willi Brandt, and Richard von Weitzeker were famous and important political perosnalities.
   How, if at all, did you resent the US military presence in Berlin?
   The presence of the U.S. military as of the other western allies like the English and French were garantieing for the freedom of the West Berlin city. Most west berliners were very thankful for their protection. During the time of the vietnam war the student demonstrations were aming against american facilities because they represented the american military involvement in Vietnam.
   How did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin? How were they hurting?
   West Germany strongly suported the West Berlin economie with financial supsedies. This allowed a rich cultural activity in the western city and brought a lot of intelectuals and artist to town.
   Dissent and Revolt
   How would you describe the protests of the 1980’s?
   The protests of the 1980s were portests of the young generation towards the old establishment of that time. In Germany it started in Berlin with the visit of the Sha of Persia and his wife during which the student Benno Onesorg was killed by a policeman on the night of their visit. This was very dramatic and later on also became a symbol of student resistance. This is a very vivid memory of mine of all the demonstrations and fighting in the streets which occurred from that time on. They continued up until the late 80’s until the fall of the wall. This is also something that happened not only in Berlin but in all of the western world. You can find a lot of cultural traces of these movements in music, for example in the songs of music festival of Woodstock.
   Were you involved in any demonstrations? If yes, how? What motivated you to do so? If you did not engage in such movements, why not?
   My parents appartment was located on Steinplatz facing the university and its cafeteria. During the time of the big assemblys of leftisch students almost all demonstrations started or ended infront of our house. Often there were fights in the streets between students and police also because of the near by “America Hause”, witch was regularily the aim of the protestors to walk to. From my personal point of view these demonstations were much to violent and also politacly represented a too radical political leftish opinion, witch I could not identify with and therefor also did no participate in.
   Did you witness any outward aggression against the East German regime? If so, describe these and how they affected your opinions?
   There were no outward agressions in West Berlin against the East German state or governement.
   Do you think that the protests of the 1980’s among East Berliners were more to bring down the wall or to get more justice WITHIN the divided state? Explain?
   The East German governement was so authoritarien that by police and secret service forces generally no demonstrations against the state were allowed. The only exceptions were the uprising of 17th of June 1951 and the peaceful deomstrations of the East German people starting in 1989.
   Were you involved in the SED (Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschland)? If yes, how? Did you undertake any actions that would have been against the policies of the SED (Demonstrations, liberal movements, underground organizations etc)?
   Since I lived in West Berlin, I had no involvement or need to have contact with the SED party.
   When there were anti-Soviet protests, how did the government tend to respond?
   The West German governement acted very careful not to cause diplomatic interferences with the East European powers. Never the less, the engadgement of the former foreign minister Hans Friedrich Genscher suported a modest change and final opening of the authoris contidions in East Germany. The traveling of East Germans into more liberal neighbor states, like Czecheslovakia and asking for political assilum at the West German embassies started the porcess of changes. East Germany with the SED and their representitives, they were much behind this development. There is the famous statement of Gorbachov when he was in East Berlin to Honecker, the prime minister of East Germany at that time, when he said: “ Wer die Zeichen der Zeit nicht sieht, wird von der Zeit bestraft, “ witch means that if the politicians of the “Nomenklatura” would not understand the signs of the time they would be wiped out by the concequences of the reactions by the people.
   Did you hear Reagan’s speech? If you did, can you describe the initial reaction from the crowd when Reagan said, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.”?
   I saw his speech on television. He was speaking infront the the Brandenburger Gate. He was approaching Gorbatchov in a very positive way beccause Gorbatchov did introcude Glasnosk. I remember that mr Reagen was a very good speaker. He was a Hollywood actor and therefor not tacken very seriously by a lot of West Europeans due to his Hollywood backround. But this statement was a very strong statement and it was understaood as a sign of the time to be ready for the wall to be torn down.
   Do you feel that the protests could have done more to reunite Germany earlier? Why or why not.
   Its not up to me to say wether the portests should have started earkier or not but the East German people did finally portest against the East German Regime. Most important is that they did it peacfully. There was a phrase that they were shouting: “ Wir sind das Volk.” It was a strong statemenet to say to do what the people want and not what you as a minority ruling think is right.
   At what point did you feel confident that the country was going to be reunited? What happened to make you confident that reunification was on its way?
   The moment that the wall was open for the people to go back and forth it was clear that a peaceful unification would be possible. Before that when East Germans had run into the embassy in the neighboring countrys and wenn the demonstraters were in the street it was completely unclear wether the East German state would fight these Protestors with military and police force. As we know today it was on the verge for this happen. And only thanks to some calming members of that political group of that time, it was prevented to turn into a big disaster.
   9 November 1989
   That Day…
   How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9. 1989? Who were you with?
   On the night of the 9th of November I was preparing myself to travel to Moscau the following day. My wife and me were invited to participate in the first private exhibition opening with a none russian artist, Jakob Mattner. We went to bed late and didn’t watch televeision or listen to the radio so we didn’t know what was already going on at the borders. But in the morning when we were picked up by our friends to go to Moscau, everyone was completely enthusiastic about what had happened. As a matter of fact my wife and I we did not believe what we were told because we were extremely surprised by it. But on the way to the airport the most amazing thing was to see how East German Trabant cars with completely happy and laughing East Germans were driving from the East to the West. We were the only ones to go East.
   Use three adjectives to describe how you felt at the time of the fall.
   Enthusiatic, happy, and for the futur hopeful
   What was your first emotion you felt when you found out that Germany had been reunited?
   Deep happiness
   Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down?
   I was never at the site were the walls fell but I was deeply impressed for the first time after the return from Moscaü when I walked through the Brandenburger Gate. It had ment to walk through these walls with all reinfrocements of the border.
   And Beyond…
   How were the living conditions on the other side? Were you surprised by the conditions in any ways?
   I was not surprised about the living conditions in the east because I knew them from my grandparents. The conitions in the East were much poorer than the conditions in the West. They did not have any luxuries or consumtion comparable to ours even though the east germans were much off than the polish or the Russians. I remember the east Germans that came to Berlin after having been for the first time in the KaDeWe they just didn’t believe what they saw, because they did not expect the kind of luxuries we were living in. …and ate Bananas they were given in front the Mercedes Store on Kurfürstendamm.
   What were the challenges that you personally faced after the wall fell?
   The cahllenge after the wall was to participate in reuniting and rebuilding the countries and this created a lot of work especially for us architects.
   Did you worry about your future (or that of your family) as a result of the fall of the wall? If so, how? Did you have children at the time of the fall, and how were they affected?
   The fall of the wall caused great euphoria and great prosterity to our profesional activities. The children were born later.
   After the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in and why?
   I am still living in the neighborhood I grew up in, because I feel most comfprtable here.
   In Retrospect…
   What did it mean to you personally when the wall fall? Can you give a few examples of how your personal life changed? Did these changes make you nervous? Excited? Both? How did the fall of the wall effect your future plans?
   As I mentioned before the fall of the wall created a great prosperity in West Berlin and our architecture office was booming in those years, so we were very busy.
   If you could’ve done something different on 9 November what would you change or would you change anything? Please give examples.
   I would have liked to be at the border and see the fall, because I later only saw it on television. But I think how everything happened is not to be changed, this is how everything changed.
   How did your perspective of the world change after the fall?
   Until the fall I thought there would always be an East and a West but with the fall of the wall I understood that there is a possibilty for the systems of the cold war to approach each other and to find common goals and aims.
   What do you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
   Well, the disadvantage of the seperation of Germany was that we were on the edge of the super powers and in case of a war we would have all been completely diminished. Of course for Berlin this was a very artificial condition to be an island of the West inside the East.
   Did you (or do you), in any ways, wish that the wall remained? Explain…
   No! There is no reason for the wall to remain. There is just no reason! It was a dictatorship with an oppresive system against the people and there is no reason for this to be reintroduced.
   Challenges of Unification
   How did the fall of the wall affect you personally? How long it did take your life to feel “normal” after the fall of the wall?
   My life was only changed by the fact that economie picked up dramaticaly after the 9th of november. Today I must say that the big difference is that instead of living in an island now you live in Berlin in a capital and you are abel to go into the surrounding country.
   In 1989, did you feel that Germany immediately unified or could you tell that it would take some time for Germany to become one whole?
   The differences between East Germany and West Germany were so dramatic and also so obvious that it was clear that politicaly the reunification would have to run through a process of uresdictional regulations. But the change in the minds would take much longer than just a couple of years, but generations.
   Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down? Describe some of the successes and failures of integration.
   The problem of the wall in the minds of the people is that the children of the East German generation have been brought up without any possibility to travel abroad or any other foreign influence except what they were exposed to in East Germany or eastern block countries. This is such a difference in upbringing in comparison to the western people who always had the possibility to travel, open speech and not to be afraid of secret police, etc. This is only slowly over generations getting rid in the peoples minds and therefor the integration of both sides needs a lot of tuning.
   Is the German government doing enough to ensure equal opportunities for ALL Berliners? Is the economic status of East and West equal? If not, what can or should be done about this?
   In the process of growing together the standard of living as also wages and costs were lower in the new federal states, but by now conditions have started ot be almost comparable. The biggest problem seems to be the missing inustry and therefor jobs in the areas around Berlin. This needs to change, so that people have more hopes for their future there.
   Are formerly east and west sectors equally represented in the political arena?
   I believe that on city and state level there is a fair representaion in the parlaments and governements.
   To what extent do easterners and westerners feel united as ONE Germany?
   In the older generations the wall in the minds seem never to fall however for the younger generation this problem of East and West has been overcome.
   If you were a member of the German government from 1989-present, what would you have done differently to ease the transition to one Germany?
   I think that the transition with all its dificulties and problems has never the less come to the best outcome possible.
   Today 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited? In what ways is Berlin a better place? In what ways is it perhaps a less desirable city?
   The biggest achievement for Berlin is that it again became the capital of all of Germany. This makes it the most important city in Germany. The disadvantage today is that since the fall of the wall we don’t have that strange condition of being an island anymore, it may not be forgotten that many people came to see this strange condition. Also a lot of money was pumped into Berlin for supsedies which made Berlin culturaly a very interesting place where a lot of events took place. We have to fight to keep that level today.
   Can you still see segregation between East and West today? Please give examples.
   The difficulty between East and West will mean for the future to stabilize the economic conditions in the rather poor areas around Berlin, Brandeburg, Türingen etc., where there is to little industry. These are the areas where we are dealing with the right wing radicals and the frustrations of people with no hopes for the future.
   Would you describe Germany as a “unified” city (country) today? Why or why not?
   I think that Germany today is very unified and that the majority of the people are arranging the transition in a very positive way.
   What is the primary challenge that needs to be met in order to unite Germany today?
   I think one has to continue to support the economie in the former East German countrys in order to supply enough working places for the people so we have less frustrations than we have today.
   In conclusion, what should young people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the fall (and its fall)? What messages are most important for them to understand?
   I think what the later generations have to understand is that the 40 years of the war were a severe cut into two countries that in the end became very differenect from each other. But that this was also a concequence of the Second World War and the responsibility for this war which Germany had caused. I think it is important to understand that by the two blocks which were facing each other, the communists on the east and the capitalists on the west, we were right inbetween these two super strugelers.

9. Keon Habbaba
   KH: Can you take a few seconds to introduce yourself, for example, on which side of the wall you lived and how old you are.
   WZ: Well my name is Wolfgang Zeller and i’m 58 years old and at the time of the wall I lived in west berlin. I aslo lived some time in Hamburg and when the wall fell I lived in Iceland. I have been back to Berlin for about 7 years.
   KH: What was it like living in West Berlin?
   WZ: First of all it was like living in the west which was quite a bit different from living in the east. Then est berlin was enclosed by that wall from 1961. If you wanted to travel you had to go either by plane or drive through the east of Germany. Which was quite a difference between 1971 and after because before that there were very thourough checks and controls and after that time it was a bit easier. Usually there were controls only in certain circumstances but you still had to wait and fix your passport matters when you entered and left again. But otherwise west berlin was quite fine and it wasn’t too small but of course you couldn’t go very far, except you had to pass through east Germany and then to the west.
   KH: How did you feel about the division of Berlin? What was your opinion about it?
   WZ: It changed a bit. There was a period of time when I thought maybe there are certain good things in the East which you dont find in the West easily but other things vice versa. Well I lived in the West and i hardly ever visited West Berlin except for a very few times and it wasn’t so pleasant, just the feeling when you looked around at all this. Of course as everyone knows on the material level it was quite a bit poorer and not so bright in the east. Other things were very hard to judge because I didn’t have much personal contact. But a good reason never came up to even consider the matter.
   KH: So what were some examples of propaganda in the East and West?
   WZ: Yes the propaganda was very strong of course. West Germany and especially West Berlin was considered itself like a fortress or something towards the East. As well the spearhead of the free west against the dictactorial east. So west berlin as an island which was, in fact geographically within the East. There were certain good points for example there was certain financial support for west berlin, those young men in west berlin they didnt have to serve in the army which was different from the rest of western Germany. So it was pretty strong, of course propaganda was all around, from all sides, you also could watch east german t vor listen to east german radio. Each side tried very hard to influence the people around them with their view.
   KH: Can you create a general picture of the attitude towards the government of the west? Were there any demonstrations or anything like that?
   WZ: No definitely not. West berlin was simply part of west Germany, period. Not formally because there was a certain different status after the war, for example each and every west German law had to be confirmed by the west berlin parliament, but i don’t know of any case where this did not happen. A very few restrictions for example what i mentioned before that there was no army in west berlin because this job was done by the allied forces. Certain things changed a bit in the 60’s where there were all these demonstrations actually all around the western world also in America along with the Vietnam war and different things which were more internal like old study systems which were challenged by the students and generally to put a bigger place fort he interest of the youg people.
   KH: How old were you at the time of the wall?
   WZ: When the wall was put up i was still very young. I was about 12 or so and i lived there for about 20 years. After that i moved to Hamburg than abroad to Iceland.
   KH: Do you know anyone who tried to escape from the East?
   WZ: No, personally not.
   KH: OK. Did you, by any chance hear Ronald Regeans speech?
   WZ: Yes, somehow I guess I knew of it. Actually The first one in West Berlin to put up thjs point was John F. Kennedy and I was around at that time. When he created this famous sentence „Ich bin ein Berliner!“ and when Regean, however many years later, repeated this sentence it felt a bit like a bad copy. But it’s true, it was at that time when Gorbachev was in power of the Soviet Union at that time. Actually I lived in Iceland when there was this famous meeting between Gorbachev and Regean i think in Iceland in the late 80’s. Yea so i followed that up in the news and everything.
   KH: Did you feel confident that the West and the East would be reunited again?
   WZ: Somehow i also had a view that this division couldn’t last forever. I had many point of views, for many years i had a more socialist point of view on that grounds that there must be a unification of the whole world and then later i changed my view and then after some period in between i discovered the Baha’i Faith and declared myself as a Baha’i and one of the essential points there ist he unity of mankind. So i could never believe that these divisions would last forever. Just how long or short it would take, nobody could tell.
   KH: were you there on the day of the fall of the wall? How did you find out that the wall fell?
   WZ: Well it’s very funny, I lived in Iceland at that time and I was a teacher at a school and the morning after the 9th some colleague at school approached me and said congratulations. I had no idea what he was talking about. Then he asked if I had seen the news last night and told me that the wall had been opened from the East to the West. After that I followed the news a bit more closely, and there wasn’t too much in it. That’s how I heard of it.
   KH: How did you feel about the wall falling?
   WZ: As I said before, I was convinced the whole time that this wall wouldn’t stay forever, so it wasn’t an absolute surprise, only maybe the at the moment or circumstances. But it had been prepared by these demonstartions in the East and opening of the wall in Hungary, so it didn’t come completely out of the blue.
   KH: How long after the wall fell did you come back to Berlin?
   WZ: That was only a few weeks later around christmas 1989. I used to come regularly to Germany to visit friends in Hamburg where I lived for a long time, and my father and other family members in west berlin. My father had a house at that time which was very close to the wall. So you would walk out of the house and after a few meters you were in front of the wall. At that part it was a fence but heavily guarded. It was very funny because it was around christmas and This fence was still there but it was all very loose so I could talk to some guard through the fence which had never been possible before and he told me that in this whole part there had been 24 guards and there were 2 guards left, one of which was sleeping in the watchtower and the other one was very bored by running around and doing virtually nothing. Then, with my father, we went downtown and crossed the old border at some point, for example the Brandenburg Gate. You still needed a passport and I still have that passport somewhere with the stamp from that time which was only a very short period of some weeks or months, you needed and you could get that stamp.
   KH: Can you describe the general atmosphere, when you returned?
   WZ: It was quite excited of course, for example the people, from the west, came in crowds and flocked to the east to see and vice versa. There was a lot of movement on both sides simply to see what was on the other side.
   KH: Were you surprised by the living conditions in the East?
   WZ: Not really surprised, I mean I didn’t know details, pretty much all i knew was the on the material side things were quite a bit poorer in the east and the shops didn’t reach that affluence of goods like you are used to in the west. Whether you can buy it or not. One thing I remember which was quite funny because all the houses in the east were, to a large degree, not in very good shape. They were old houses, not renovated very well and so on. But already there were a number of colorful advertisement for some shops which didn’t fit there at all. It was like patched on top of it. Like an old coat with new patches sown onto it.
   KH: Did you face any specific challenges personally or professionally?
   WZ: No not at all. Well I didn’t live there in the first few years after the wall so I can’t tell you if there were any challenges for westerners or easterners. I can tell you that there was a general skepticism necause many from the east coming to the west and occupying jobs there. Which put some more stress on te labor market but personally i didnt see anything.
   KH: Did you worry about the future of Berlin? Maybe the whole government would just crash or sumthing?
   WZ: No there was no reason to worry. Actually what happened at that time which we studied in Histroy was that the Eastern system crumbled very fast and after a few attempts to rise up something of their own the old Eastern system simply collapsed. Unfortunately one could say nothing new was established but simply the west took over. The feeling of many of the older easterners was just moving to the west side. It became just an enlargement of the west. Definitely not by force but putting their own rules, laws system and so on, in place of what has been before.
   KH: Did your perspective change after the wall fell?
   WZ: Well West berlin lost a bit of its special status at that time. As i said before it was like the spearhead of the west to the east, this status dropped quite a bit after the fall of the wall. Then of course all the questions came up how the united Germany was one of the fastest in history, it took less than one year. Little by little it came out that the material conditions on the east were even worse than everyone suspected and even today there are many weak points and onkly little by little a few positive points come up. Other things of course changed a bit more to the worst. Many of the Easterners felt that it had been a very stable social system with quite a bit of respect for those who didnt have that much and this changed it. Otherwise there was nothing to worry about Berlin or so. For me it was clear that this was the first, and an important, step to show the world can be united, because the Berlin wall was once a symbol fort he division of the whole world. If this can fall then other divisons can also fall.
   KH: Did you think that the timing of the fall was right?
   WZ: There is no real judge,ent about that, it was a movement, it was certain conditions internationally also certain openings of the soviet system through Gorbachev and those who he represented. Then these movements in the east and Hungary and after this crisis was put through, it simply happened. Something like this had to happen sooner or later but it was at that time, nobody could choose. Then the question was always discussed if the unification was at the right time, I believe if not then, when else, the problems will always come up.
   KH: Can you name advantages and disadvantages of the wall falling, for any side?
   WZ: Well, definitely so that you could move freely, of course that’s an advantage for all the easterners to choose to go, or move, to the west, which they did in large numbers. With resulted in more problems fort he East, positive or negative. Since i’ve been back here, of course, it’s a great thing that you simply can sit in your car or a train and move out without any problems. You just drive for half an hour and you end up somewhere like it’s pretty normal in most of the countries of the world which had not been normal here in Berlin.
   KH: Did you think that Germany could be immedietly unified after the fall, or did you think it would take some time?
   WZ: I didn’t really have a perspective on how long, i cannot say because i didnt have clear expectations of slower or faster. Little by little it came out that not the economy and all this, but the view of the people of the west and the east towards each other, which was kind of skeptical on different grounds and it still is to some degree. Still there is a feeling that the westerners have to support the easterners materially and that the easteners had to submit to the western system. There were some profits for example, the incredible increase in western cars in east germany and all the eastern cars dissappeared very fast. Probably some housing conditions or something improved faster but on the other side this division from the attitude which you still can see in Berlin. I live in a west Berlin district and work only a few miles towards the east. Day by day i can feel the difference in the attitude towards each other.
   KH: Can you explain how the East and West integrated after the fall of the wall?
   WZ: Many, especially the more educated, of the people they took more chances than they couldv’e before to find their living in the west, bei t west Germany or any western countries. The integration also took place the other way around, for example the whole administrative system was completely put according to the western standards. People would be sent from the west in positions where they could control the whole system according to how the west wnated it. This caused a lot of bad feelings on the eastern side. Eastern qualifications were judged by western standards. In that respect you cannot really talk of a unification you have to say that the eastern system fell apart in a very short time and then the west german system was put over them.
   KH: Can you describe any significant changes, for example in daily life?
   WZ: In the west you don’t see too much. Pretty much the whole Eastern Europe, for example the number of polish people has increased tremendously and you find areas in west berlin or west germany whic almost dominated. In the east, i cannot say that much because i didn’t live there, the most part ist hat certain parts of east germany were almost emptied. Because people just movd away, especially those with greater skill.

10. Interviewer: Josephine Vonderau (JV)
    Interviewee: Patrick Vonderau (PV)
    JV: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    PV: I was born in Berlin-Charlottenburg, in 1968, and I was raised in Berlin-Dahlem, which is also part of West Berlin. Since then I have been living in Berlin all the time. Only one year abroad. I have been studying at the Freie Universität Berlin and have worked at the Humboldt University. Now Im teaching in another city, in Bochum. Im living in Berlin-Charlottenburg now so I have seen different parts of the city over a period of nearly 40 years and seen how it changes. I first had an experience from the time when the Berlin Wall fell down.
    JV:On what side of Berlin were you living while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living?
    PV: I was living in the Western part of the town and it effected my way of living in many ways, for example, when we were always traveling to Sweden for our holidays during summer time, and we had to go through the Eastern part of the country; pass all the Border controls, so we, as children, could see how people were living in the East and could observe all the differences between Eastern and Western lifestyles, which was kind of impressive. And living in an enclosed city of course also was a special thing, although you didn’t experience it, I mean Black people were being enclosed so much.
    JV: Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    PV: I think I didn’t have any clear opinion of Berlin’s division; it was just an affect and so I think that I very much of this point of time shared my parent’s opinion, who were basically afraid of everything what came from the East, and who also experienced World War 2 in Berlin and the Soviets coming. I think I was also a little bit afraid of what could happen or I was at least sceptical about people living in the East and their attitudes toward the West and saw it with a kind of scepticism.
    JV: Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
    PV: Well, the conditions were really, I mean, terrible in a way; I was once traveling to the East with my brother to attend a concert, and on our way back we somehow lost our passports while having a walk in some East Berlin street. Then we had to go back to the Border before twelve o’clock at night and so when we came to the Border we found out that we had lost the passports somewhere…in some street, and it was autumn; autumn leafs everywhere; so we went back to the streets and we were going through all the autumn leafs in order to find the passports, and in the end we found them, and we managed to go out, but this may illustrate the exites that people then had about being repressed by Border controls.
    JV: What was your perception of life and politics on the other side?
    PV: Basically there was no perception at all, I mean, it was very selective and I went there maybe two, three times, and I really saw it from an outsiders point of view what was going on…I don’t know anything about how people lived, it’s only the stories you got to hear from your parents about how people lived there and so I really didn’t know what was the actual condition of living there.
    JV: Can you provide examples of blatant censorship/propaganda on either side?
    PV: On either side? I mean, I can give an example of censorship; when we, as children, were going to Sweden by the car, I remember that one time my comics were taken away by some Border controler (laughs)…so that’s an example for censorship, but I haven’t experienced any kind of blatant censorship otherwise…
    JV: If you had children at that time, how did you explain the partition of Germany?
    PV: Well, that’s a really difficult question…well you could refer to political systems and maybe that would be enough, maybe you don’t have to explain it using idiological arguments, like there’s a good reason, or doing so…but I don’t know…
    JV: How, if at all, did you resent the US military presence in Berlin?
    PV: When I attended Canisius Kolleg, my Highschool, I once went to the military base, to the US military base and we got to see some kind of military performance, like helicopters flying and some soldiers jumping out and shooting around with some special weapons, so it was staged for German school children, in order to give an impression about the military presence of the United States in Berlin, and I think that impressed me, I didn’t understand of course anything, or the political things going on, so it was kind of a more image related experience you got here, like: “Wow, that’s great!“
    JV: How would you describe the protests of the 1980’s?
    PV: The protests of the 1980’s? I was about 17 -18 years old, when the protests started, and I have to admit, that I only learned very selectively about what was going on and it sounded like, you know, things you hear from a far away country, not something which is very close to where you actually live, so all I remember is that I heard something in the news, mostly read in newspapers, and about the protests organized by the churches in the East. I remember something, but don’t ask me about any details, I just…I think it started with the East, there was some kind of festivity going on in the East, and afterwards we really could feel the things going on there.
    JV: Were you involved in any demonstrations? If yes, how? What motivated you to do so? If you did not engage in such movements, why not?
    PV: Well, basically, because, I think I was too young and too stupid to understand everything, and I didn’t feel concerned about what was going on in the East, because nobody really believed that the Wall could fall down, I really ignored it somehow I think.
    JV: Do you think that the protests of the 1980’s among East Berliner’s were more to bring down the Wall or to get more justice WITHIN the divided state? Explain.
    PV: Well, I think, maybe one really strong motivation was to bring down the wall in the first place and to obtain freedom; freedom of travel, I mean if you think back, I think about all these people trying to flee from the GDR via Hungary in the beginning and I think that was a very strong motive just to leave the country…to be free; to go abroad; the freedom to buy things and so on, and I don’t know so much about it, because I haven’t been part of this process in the GDR.
    JV: When there were anti-Soviet protests, how did the government tend to respond?
    PV: In the West or East?
    JV: In the West.
    PV: I was not involved in these protests…(long pause) Yes yes yes…I was actually in some kind of demonstration once, but it was a demonstration against all the tourists coming to Berlin; we went to the Berlin Wall and we had some kind of Teddy bear, and we put it on the Wall and some caught up on the Teddy bear (laughs) and it was just meant as a performance…it was really funny…and in fact all the tourists came and stayed, and came to the stupid Teddy bears and made photographs and thought it was some kind of political demonstration, which was not the case of course.
    JV: Did you hear Reagan’s speech? If you did, can you describe the initial reaction from the crowd when Reagan said, “Mr.Gorbachev, tear down this wall.“?
    PV: Well, I have no personal experience, but I remember having heard the speech in the television or read about it in news papers and I remember also that initial reactions were rather critical because, this political move was very blunt and, I mean nobody really believed in the power of political forces bringing the wall down and especially no politician like Reagan , I mean, who also had a kind of aggression and who also didn’t really have a sudden appearance to me.
    JV: Do you feel that the protests could have done more to reunite Germany earlier?Why or why not?
    PV: Yeah, I think so, I think if people would have demonstrated maybe, but on the other hand I think also Gorbachev,him or other people, they also wanted to allow these protests, otherwise they would not have allowed these protests going on and it’s similar in Lithuania, that it was possible at one part of time to protest against the regime and not to be killed or just brought to Siberia or somewhere else. I think that there are some theories that the secret services in the East decided to allow these protests to happen, and so, I can imagine this perspective wouldn’t have been possible earlier.
    JV: At what point did you feel confident that the country was going to be reunited? What happened to make you confident that reunification was on ist way?
    PV: Well I was confident when I heard that the Wall had fallen down(laughs)…but before that I didn’t believe in any kind of reunification.
    JV: How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9 1989?
    PV: Well, I was actually involved in a student film project, some young film maker from the Berlin Filmakademie made some kind of fiction feature in Berlin- Kreuzberg, and we were working on that film all day, and I remember that quite late at evening somebody came in, shouting: “Hello, did you hear, the wall fell down!“And we were kind of surprised but nobody really was shaken and the director even said, “Well it’s interesting, but let’s continue with our project.“ So we didn’t go there and we didn’t make any kind of recordings so I think the wall didn’t have any kind of vision, that artistic vision that could have been a good movie, so then I went there afterwards; the days after, like…two days after, and I was driving with my car to the East and it was very interesting to see.
    JV: Describe how you felt, at the moment the wall fell. Use adjectives to describe how you felt at the time of the fall.
    PV: Well, it was a very interesting time and it was kind of adventurous for us to go over to the East and to explore things. I think the basic attitude was to be curious and I was going to a cinema in the East, which I had heard about, and I had made contacts to the people working in the East German film scene and so it was just very interesting. Curious would be the most important attitude I could describe.
    JV: What was your first emotion you felt when you found out that Germany had been reunited?
    PV: I don’t remember…surprised is not really an emotion, in any case it was kind of a good feeling; nothing negative…so what kind of emotion…surprised…how do you say it…anticipated what would happen but not in a bad way. It’s hard to say. It was not a relief and it was not fear, nor anger, it was mostly being curious.
    JV: Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down.
    PV: Well, it was kind of crazy and the media capitalized alot in the situation by reporting extensively about it, so I felt sceptical about this whole media coverage and decided not to go there and not to be involved in this kind of media event being staged for the masses. Therefore I didn’t really get close to what was going on, but I mean it was very exciting and discussions were about this all the time.
    JV: Were you scared of any prejudices the other side could have had? What did you feel when you first passed through the wall?
    PV: Well, I mean, the Eastern part was always there, so it was not so special to pass through the wall and I think after the wall fell you had no big emotions anymore, because, well the emotions also were associated with the wall and being suppressed by the GDR government and being controlled by Borderline controls and so on and after the situation the system somehow collapsed it really just felt like an uncharted territory and you could go there and make contacts and start things like many people did; they went there to sell stuff, to sell cars and everything and so it was just a big “Bonanza“; you could just do whatever you wanted to do.
    JV: How were the living conditions on the other side? Were you surprised by the conditions in any ways?
    PV: Well, I was very well informed about the living conditions, because my parents had friends in East Berlin, in Pankow, so we visited them several times and I knew about the living conditions and they were not so bad anyways, like you couldn’t compare them to living conditions in Bulgaria or other Eastern European countries at that time.
    JV: What were the challenges that you personally faced after the wall fell?
    PV: The challenges I personally faced…well, I think I didn’t face any challenge besides the fact that there were more entertainment possibilities, but I think older people faced more challenges, like the generation being older than 40 or 50 years, which for them was, to think different, I mean in the West and in the East as well. So, but I think being a young resident of West Berlin was really just great.
    JV: What did it mean to you personally when the wall fell? Can you give a few examples of how your personal life changed? Did these changes make you nervous? Excited? Both? How did the fall of the wall affect your future plans?
    PV: Well, I think I was not personally really effected by the falling of the wall, I was excited about it, but it had no consequences towards my life infact, I mean, it was not changing the place where I was living, I was not changing University, I was not changing my occupation, my family was not moving away, my friends were still in town, at the very same place, so everything very much stayed as it was before, so I was not effected in that sense.
    JV: If you could’ve done something different on November 9th what would you change or would you change anything at all? Please give examples.
    PV: Well I think I should have convinced the stupid film director to quickly take the camera and the actors and to go to the wall and to do some scenes just right there with this historical background, it would have been good for this particular film; but otherwise I didn’t miss anything, I think it was not important just to be there in the very occasion of the 9th of November, I mean it was interesting also the very days which followed and the years which followed and I think the media event and this special date are not the most important things to think about.
    JV: How did your perspective of the world change after the fall?
    PV: I mean it changed of course because Eastern Europe opened for travel and for exchange on all sorts of matters, of course, I mean the perspective changed alot, Germany was reunited and you really had more possibilities and of course that changed the perception of the world in general. And I mean, Im married to someone from Lithuania, which is former Eastern Europe, so you can see…this wouldn’t have been possible prior to 1989 of course, I mean, because the falling of the wall also changed a challenge to political regimes and countries like Lithuania and that really started a whole wave of new systems in these countries, or something which at least looked different than before.
    JV: Did the wall fall at the right time? Did it happen the right way?
    PV: I mean it could have fallen the other direction…no, but I don’t know, of course, it’s hard to say, but you can ask this question about anything happening in history, I mean: Did the 2nd World War stop at the right point of time; I mean that’s just impossible to answer; it’s coinsidence, I think there is no logic behind this and nobody knows actually what happened, what led to the fall of the wall; several people claim that they really helped it, like Gorbachev, but for example Gorbachev is a very problematic character when you look at him from Eastern Europe; he has a very good reputation and everyone loved him after the wall fell down and he was called something like “Gorbi“ and in Eastern Europe they really hated him, they have some good proof therefore, that he was really involved in this KGB and security services and they had some other plan, which they actually realized with this falling of the wall, which goes far beyond that, like just excurting another kind of political influence.
    JV: What do you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
    PV: Advantages and disadvantages? That’s not so easy to answer…disadvantages of course for the people in the East were not to be free and not to have the freedom to travel and to do what they actually wanted in terms of income and careers and consumption and so on, and so I don’t see any real good point with the German seperation and why there should be any advantages.
    JV: How did the fall of the wall affect you personally? How long did it take your life to feel “normal“ after the fall of the wall?
    PV: Well, I felt unnormal before the wall fell down and I felt unnormal after the wall fell down, so I think the wall is a little bit exaggerated, I mean there are still people who are living here very much as they did before, I mean maybe for Eastern people it changed more, but in West Berlin I could feel some changes of course; we could see faces in the streets which we haven’t seen before, but I mean that’s basically it. If you are not working in the industry and loosing some investments being just a student; it didn’t really effect you too much.
    JV: What significant changes did you notice after the wall fell? How has the fall of the wall affected your daily life?
    PV: Well, because West Berlin was kind of provincial before the wall fell down and you could feel that the city was really getting crowded, I mean in very short time there were more cars, more people and then you had different radio programs, I mean commercialization of radio and television really started with 1989, it suddenly got all these advertisements. There is quite a good moment in “Good Bye Lenin“ in the movie, where they go out of the street and really have this very big advertisement; that’s really something which was very observable in the time after 1989.
    JV: To what extent do Easterners and Westerners feel united as ONE Germany?
    PV: I have only my personal observation and I think that they really don’t question it to be citizens of one country except people older than 60 years, I really think they have some more difficulties. But I think, people under 40 they don’t have any problems and they would be proud of being Easterner or Westerner but they wouldn’t talk about it too much.
    JV: 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited? In what ways is Berlin a better place? In what ways is it perhaps a less desirable city?
    PV: It’s a better place, because it has several Universities now which are open to everyone and has lots of cultural institutions and it’s just a very interesting big city which attracts alot of people from abroad, on the other hand of course, Berlin was a cozy place before 1989 and you anyway had some contacts to the international art world, famous jazz musicians were coming here to perform live and you had some kind of international flair but it wasn’t so stressful as it is now. I mean it’s just a very big city with lots of offerings in different levels and so it’s one of the most attractive and interesting city’s in the world, with very low crime rate and thats why I think it’s a really interesting capital.
    JV: In what ways are East and West Germany still different in 2007?
    PV: Well, I mean there are no regions in the West where it is dangerous to go, because you are maybe black or homosexual, so I think there are really bigger problems with this kind of aggression in Sachsen or so; you have of course this political extremism in the Western part, but I think this whole structure of support builds better in the Eastern regions.
    JV: What are the primary challenges facing Berlin today? How much are these challenges a result of the partition?
    PV: From my point of view, one basic challenge is, that Berlin has no money, and many educational institutions would urgently need more money, like Universities of course, but also school systems, and I think that’s a big problem and Berlin would have to find out how to really finance all these cultural institutions it has, and I don’t really know how to do this, but I think that’s really urgent, to live up to the standards at the Universities supposed to Stanford.
    JV: In conclusion, what should yound people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the fall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
    PV: Mhm…what messages are important…also a very difficult question…I think they should see the possibilities; a very important lesson of course is that people can change something, like demonstrating, which can help against these kinds of regimes but young people also should be aware that this change is not done on the street alone by young people marching, but there is of course a whole political system behind, which allows for these demonstrations, and we had evidence for this in Ukraine, this whole thing of the Orange Revolution, which was actually supported by American Secret Services and the same thing, Im sure happened in the Eastern part of Berlin when the Wall fell down. I mean there were some kind of support measures for these demonstraters, they were not going alone and they were the media attending and I mean one major thing is also, that the media has to be there actually, if there is no media coverage , I think, the demonstraters would be without any powers, and they could be shot and nobody would know about it. So I think it would be naive to tell young people now, that you can change something by going on the street because they have to be aware of under rich pre-conditions they can go on the street and demonstrate and change.
    JV: Thank you very much!

11. So please take a few moments to introduce yourself starting from where you were raised and just sketch your life where you grew up your family your job
    D: Yeah well my name is Dietrich Ponick-Starfinger I was born in 1954 in Berlin I was raised in Berlin in Steglitz my parents my brother and I have ever lived there since up to the coming down of the wall.
    M: And yeah you have lived in the west how did it affect your life your daily life when you lived in the western part.
    D: Well before the wall everything was normal my aunt was living in the Treptow in the eastern side and she visited me once a week she was kind of like a second mother to me and then in 1961 on the 12 of august she came to west Berlin and people were nervous there were rumours that Ulbricht might build a wall and my farther and my aunt were very nervous that afternoon but my aunt said this is stupid this is non-sense and she went back and there she was caught a family living just 20 minutes apart from each other if u go by car was separated from then on and for many years both sides couldn’t pass the border.
    M: And that was an emotional side or emotional effects on you and your family?
    D: Well it was a shock for the whole family and yeah we tried to get along with it by travelling to Bulgaria and to Hungary for holidays just to see each other. And then later when we were aloud to go cross the border it was whatever ten years later or so then we had all family celebrations were taken place in the east. Then for example nine people went to the church to the ceremony in the West and then went over for the other two in the east to the restaurant in the east just to celebrate together.
    M: And your opinion towards the division of Berlin I don’t think I have to ask you if you supported it?
    D: For me it was most stupid and shocking and I didn’t understand it and for us the eastern side was the enemy and the bad guy.
    M: Yes and how was your perception especially as a young adult during the time of the wall and the whole separation?
    D: Well we hated the wall when we went on cycling tours along the wall we sometimes just smashed some old rotten poles of the first model of the wall. So we were aggressive.
    And when we went over to West Germany in transit then we always had to wait half an hour or one hour at one checkpoint so that meant two hours on each ride and people were looking at you and searching your boots also humiliating you.
    M: Can you further describe any experiences that you had at the border the keyword humiliation?
    D Well once I went over with a girlfriend at the checkpoint and we were just whatever laughing or giggling or so and then the guy took my passport and I had to wait for 20 min and he said he couldn’t identify me 20 minutes later a second guy came and he said okay its you and you can go. And for example they were searching your pockets for money that you wanted to smuggle and so on. Although I did smuggle money and newspapers and pocket calculators and things like that. I was successful I think.
    M and are there any other experiences you want to share in regards of travelling between the sides just anything?
    M: Travelling was hard because first you had to go to an office to apply for a visa then you had to come back after a week to get the visa and then you were allowed to go to the border this just for a trip to east Berlin just to see relatives or to stroll around in the other half of the city. Shopping was cheap there so we were taking advantage of that we bought books there and other things also my Cello was from East Berlin.
    M: How did the separation of Berlin affect the relationship with your aunt living in the east?
    D: Well it made the relationship difficult and I remember as a teenager at the age of fifteen sixteen or so I sometimes went to see her on my own and when I went back we had to separate at the border and I remember that I was crying-sometimes.
    D: And before I went n holiday with my aunt to the Baltic Sea to Stralsund where my grandmother lived and fortunately my grandmother could settle over faster because the GDR flew out the old pensioners if they wanted because they wanted to save the money.
    M What was your perception of life and politics on the other side I mean did you get in contact with the life and the culture of the GDR through your aunt, but that was only one person so what did you think of other people living in the GDR?
    D Well I didn’t meat many but most of them were normal and didn’t like the country either I also went to theatre there they had there ceremonies there military parades on Unter Den Linden which I disliked very much and along side the parade there were StaSi people standing on each street corner and you could recognize them easily because they were just wearing plain suits and a bag so every corner they were standing.
    M did you feel any kind of aggression when you saw those people disturbing the normal cultural life of the citizens the complete control?
    D: Well I find that interesting sure I felt pity for the people living there
    M Do you have any experiences or examples of censorship or propaganda in either the east or the west?
    D Well sure censorship was just that we wanted to smuggle a Spiegel magazine over across the border and we were caught and they just took it from us. And there was censorship in the east and you weren’t allowed to watch western television or so but people just did and they knew about the facts people weren’t stupid there. And censorship in the west well I think that there was propaganda in the west against the east yeah that is true.
    M Also maybe your education?
    D Probably but everyone just agreed on that and actually it was true and it was a bad regime.
    M When you saw or realized the U.S. military did you feel threatened or protected?
    D Yeah I felt protected because there had been the blockade in 48 which I didn’t experience there had been the Cuban crisis which I experienced we were thankful for them we were glad that they were there and I was glad that I didn’t have to got to the military myself.
    M Speaking of fear did you speak about such emotions with you family or your brother or your aunt as swell?
    D Sure there was fear and in (19)61 for example there was a lot of fear but I was fairly small I felt it as well and I went to the Rathaus Schöneberg when Kennedy held his famous speech and I was standing there as a six year old guy and I was glad about him coming there. My father for example built a hose in 62 but he built it in Hannover and not in Berlin because he didn’t dare to invest the money in Berlin itself and for him this house which he never used for himself was a kind of escape.
    M: Could you understand most of the decisions that your made or actions that he undertook because of the separation?
    D: If I understood them no only years later I didn’t know why this and that happened.
    M: It’s interesting to have the perspective of a young adult as well and did you witness any protests in the 1980s either in the east or the west?
    D: No just on television but I always wished to go over and take part but I never managed.
    M: Never managed what do you mean?
    D Well I didn’t find the time and I said how complicated it was to go East Berlin. But I would have wanted to help them I would have wanted to support them.
    M And sitting in front of the television watching these helpless people in the east during the demonstrations. (KORREKTURENDE)
    D: Yeah sure the things with the embassy in Prague and in Budapest.
    M What did you feel?
    D Well I thought those were courageous people
    I was very worried that the army would just kill all of them we were just waiting for a bug thing like 53 in Berlin or 56 in Budapest.
    M So speaking of revolutions and demonstrations with aggressions from government side or military side you didn’t participate in any demonstrations or liberal you involved in any liberal youth groups or unions in the west or maybe your friends or any experiences that you want to share?
    D: No
    M Did you understand the needs and the goals of the people demonstrating in the east?
    D: Well those were freedom and they wanted to have the power they always said: Wir sind das Volk” we are the people and they always wanted to travel and they wanted to have all the goods that they couldn’t get. There was a division in the east between the people who had relatives in the west and those who had western marks and who could buy the valuable gods and the others couldn’t there was kind of first and second class in the GDR that made many people angry that just drove them crazy.
    ‘M But you could understand you could emotionally interact with the people in the east that were angry at each other also at a young adult.
    D: yeah but then I wasn’t young anymore I was about thirty three or something lie that.
    M SO let me hear you talk about Regeans speech in front of the Brandenburger Tor did you see it on television did you witness it or did you hear anyone talk about it?
    D I didn’t like Regean very much so I don’t think I watched it on television I only read it I the newspaper and I thought he was crazy because for me it was just an illusion I never thought about the coming down of the wall or the possibility.
    M Did you give up on it or could you just nit imagine life without it?
    D I had given up yeah. If you experience those structures for so many years then you just give up.
    M and did you talk with your aunt about the speech and especially tear down this wall?
    D: I can’t remember ah and she was wasn’t she here then yeah she came over in 74 family reunifications were possible in the 70 there was a warmer climate then.
    M you said that you have given up the hope that the wall would come down that Germany would be united again was anything that kind of gave the hope a spark again prior to the fall of the wall. Was any experience that gave you the message man it’s still possible.
    D No there wasn’t for me it just seemed impossible.
    M and on the day when the wall came down how did you find out about it?
    D I only found out probably the next morning when I went to work so I completely missed it we were asleep then.
    M Were you sad that you missed those moments?
    D Yeah I was but I can’t remember which day it was but I think at least 2 days later or so we went to the border in the evening. And I was carrying my daughter Nicola she was 1 year old and we were walking along Brandenburg gate where the people were hammering on the wall and we had a look on the checkpoint at Hauptbahnhof and at the Invaliedenstr. Where people were welcomed and cheered and it was a fantastic atmosphere and even for months this atmosphere was there in the city and every train and every bus was just crowded when the people from the GDR came over also relatives from Thüringen came to visit us.
    M and were you proud to carry your daughter along side the Brandenburger Tor and just having the thought in your mind my daughter will have a better life that I have
    D yeah sure it was a great event and she took part and on the Saturday morning we went to Schlesiches Tor were we the new checkpoint was being build an were we were witnesses of the opening of the wall and people were standing there applauding.
    M and you said earlier that your aunt came over before the fall of the wall and did you get in contact with her a couple of days after the wall came down did you talk to her what did she say?
    D I can’t remember but everybody was glad and for her it was just that she had to leave all her money all her funds that she had saved she had to leave it in the GDR she was only allowed to go there once a week to collect a small amount of money but this was difficult because of all these border procedures. So through the coming down of the wall she got her money back that was important t for her because all the GDR people didn’t have good pensions they didn’t earn much there so she has to live on that money now .
    M ok and did the week or just the time span when the wall came down did it change your opinion or did it change your political opinions in any way?
    D well we didn’t see Regean as a hero but we saw Gorbatschow as a hero that was the change we started t like the Russians because it was the Russian support which made it all possible. the gdr people didn’t want that. The Russians and the Hungarians they made it hey accelerated it.
    M and in your personal life did anything change after the wall did it give you hope just for your life?
    D well yeah before Berlin had been an island and now it is the capital of Germany and you can travel to the east you can travel everywhere that gave us a lot of freedom.
    M and it gave you confidence?
    D Well for us that was when the second w had ended. The wall was just some kind of continuation.
    M and after the wall came down where did you live and why did you make that choice.
    D I continued to live in the west and in the 90ies I bought a garden some kind of property in the east in Teltow not far from Berlin. And we used it as a garden which wasn’t possible before and then I build a house there and moved there so i´ living in the east now.
    M And what led you to buying this property in the east outside f the city?
    D Well we were more or less captured in Berlin yes this was true for my children and for me that we could just go on cycling tours in Brandenburg then that meant freedom sure. Before that we had to take the bicycles n the train for four or three hours and then we could start the bicycle trip,
    M Paradox?
    D; Yeah terrible. And I didn’t know much about nature and animals I learned that after the coming down of the wall. Completely new perspectives opened up for me and the east is fascinating and different more traditional it’s just a step backward in history a leap but in a positive way.
    M in 1989 did you believe that Germany would unite immediately and how long did you think it would take?
    D Well I thought that it took too long. And they also choose the wrong holiday I think it should have been the 9 of November.
    M because that is the holiday of the people and October is just the official date.
    D Yeah October is just stupid. It took the governments much too long.
    M do you believe the governments of the 90ies and today’s governments have made mistakes in reuniting the two parts?
    D Well I think chancellor kohl made a mistake as he said that everybody would be better off very soon. And I think that was a great mistake. He just wanted to provide an equal situation on both sides of Germany and that was just a vision and that was just not realistic. That was just a promise and then the people from the east elected him but I think the spd was much more realistically then. And there were many mistakes made all the firms in the east were closed down you could only buy products from the west here in the east and that really was a mistake and that caused a lot of trouble and unemployment a situation that we still have the east is much poorer. There is a second and first class Germany.
    M So what should a politician do today?
    D Well give more support to the east to help itself by subsidising work places or things like that.
    M after the reunification the government has raised the taxes in the western art in order to have money to reconstruct the east. Do you believe that criticism about this tax is reasonable?
    D I think it is okay that it still exists today because there is a lot to be done in the east still today.
    M: I mean look at the streets here its just sand 18 years after the reunification.
    D the infrastructure is still very bad and this makes people leave the east and so the division becomes bigger and bigger
    M speaking of Berlin today what changed here when you go out what is different?
    D Well the east is even nicer today because most things are renovated and there are more traditional buildings in the eastern part. So the astern part of Berlin in the centre is really chic.
    M Let us speak about the StaSi or the Staatsicherheit as a young boy did you know what the StaSi was doing?
    D: Yeah they were observing people in the east and ever y third citizen of the east was a member.
    M And did you realize that your aunt might as well could have worked for the StaSi?
    D no I didn’t think about that. You just can’t imagine that your relatives would be part of the StaSi but if you look at statistics this was very probable but you just don’t think about that
    M Any experiences that you had with the StaSi or anything that you found out later?
    D Well I found out later that in 1971 we went to a place in Hungary to meet my aunt during this time we were observed by the StaSi and I only found out about that after the coming down of the wall when I checked my StaSi files and it was always said that there were files on the west Germans not only on the east Germans so the StaSi was also active in west Germany during that visit we were observed by the StaSi when we stayed at this town for two or three weeks to meet my aunt. Then they must have been following us they knew which car we were travelling they knew where we stayed, what we were doing to which lake we went so they were certainly following us all the time. This just came as a shock to me and only then I noticed how bad the StaSi was before that I only knew it from East Germans telling me about it I knew their stories or from films or books or newspaper reports in that case I just experienced it myself.
    M and before you received those files did you think that it would have been possible that the StaSi observed you?
    D I didn’t believe they had done so in Hungary on our holiday I thought that they had done so during trips to Thüringen or so or to Erfurt I suspected that they had done it during these occasions. I was suspecting that but I didn’t suspect that it would happen in Hungary.
    M: And when you received those letters were you angry?
    D Absolutely I was angry and shocked but it has been so much time gone by that it was only a slight shock and light anger.
    M and did you show them to your aunt?
    D Yes I did.
    M Would you mind if I take copies of them?
    D No go ahead your welcome.
    M In conclusion what do you believe should young people do assure that a separation the wall will exist again?
    D Well they should just do the things Mr Fischer was explaining to you at this years Bermun final ceremony that young people should take a part in politics they should be active they should use democratic means and ways to influence life if they become active in that way then there wont happen in the future hopefully.
    M What do you believe could you do in order to help today’s youth to learn about the past?
    D well someone needs to tell them about it what you are doing here is a good thing. And there are more newspaper reports that state that teenagers don’t know anything about the wall and the situation before that. People are forgetting too fast and that way they can’t learn from it.
    Is there anything you want to add speaking of the conflict Communism vs. Capitalism?
    D Well I’m happy that it is over and as child I was just living in the middle of it on a lonely island called Berlin and now I am part of the world. And I’m having a passport which says federal republic of West Germany before we were only allowed to have an identity card which was kind of provisional because from the eastern side we were not regarded as citizens of the western republic of Germany. We were just West Berliners they regarded West Berlin as a separate state.
    M So what do you have in your hands right there?
    D This is a piece of the wall which I hammered of the wall myself.
    M So what do you feel when hold that piece in your hands today?
    D Well I feel proud and I still feel this kind of satisfaction it gave me when I hammered it off to destroy this menacing and terrible monument.
    M Thank you for your time!
    D Thank you for having me!

12. Hyeck a.k.a. HS; Herr Hoedt a.k.a. HH
    HS: Can you please briefly sketch your life from the day you were born until present?
    HH: (Laugh) It’ll take five days to explain my whole life (laugh). Basically, I was born and
    raised in Berlin. I was born in 1959 when the wall was still up and I traveled lots of
    times through GDR. In fact, I crossed the wall from one side to the other one sometimes
    but lived all my life in Germany.
    HS: On which side of Berlin were you living while the city was divided and how did this affect you and your way of living?
    HH: I was born in the West side of Berlin and I lived there until the wall came down. Whenever we traveled by car for example (that’s what my family did), we had to go through checkpoints which was a very nasty procedure; it took a long time, the guards checked in different ways; they’d pull us out and we had to open the entire trunk, get the bench out and everything, so that was really annoying. Basically, we were fenced in and that was obvious to us. Only flying was easy. Other than that, it was always like a prison. We also got some extra money, which at least my dad got, for staying in Berlin. That was the Berlin-Zulage, because the German government wanted to award to people who stayed and didn’t leave Berlin.
    HS: Can you please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between to sectors?
    HH: At the checkpoint, we always had to hand in our passports. The guards always wrote down the date of when you checked in, and they knew exactly how long it’d take by car to get to the other side. Whenever we wanted to leave the GR, if the journey took too long, they’d pull you out of car and question you sometimes. You were only allowed to stay in certain areas for stopping and taking a break on your way. You were not allowed to leave the highway (they had always the guards there too), so there was no chance to escape. They’d always check the car. For example, at every single gas station, they’d have a mirror under the car to see whether people who tried to escape from the GR are there or not. Once in a while, they’d also ask you to get out of the car and body check.
    HS: Did you have any family members of friends living on the other side? How did the division influence your friendships or relations to family members?
    HH: I had an aunt living on the East of Berlin. Once in a while, we went over to visit her. In order to do so, we needed a special VISA. We only could to stay for next 24 hrs and we always had to exchange our money because they wanted to have our foreign currency, the DM. So we just had to do that and we didn’t actually know what to do with the East German money. It was always tiring to go to the officers and apply for such visa and give explanations why you are going to the other side and so on. So it definitely affected the family relationship.
    HS: Can you provide some examples of blatant propagandas on either side?
    HH: The Western side didn’t really have any propaganda. They just reported how it was and they always had to take care not to put GDR down too much because they wanted to have permission of GDR to let the West Berliners visit East Berliners, but East Berliners couldn’t visit the West Berliners. They were more or less in jail. However, under such unfair conditions, we always had to stay friendly to them or else they wouldn’t let us drive on their highways. The East German propaganda was the “Sportze Kanale” which was a TV show in which they’d take information from Western news shows i.e. unemployment. Then they said, “Look at that typical Western democracy and free market system! They have unemployment but we don’t have any unemployed person at all!” But of course it a lie.
    HS: How, if at all, did you resent the US military presence in Berlin?
    HH: We had three different parts: the French, the British and the U.S. In the US part, we always knew that there were Volksfests(festivals) going on in Zehlendorf and that was the only time when we really realized that Americans were here in Berlin. I was never scared or impressed by them. They never showed off neither, so it was just good to have them here as friends.
    HS: How did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin?
    HH: West definitely help Berlin in economical ways. The workers here got extra money, the Berlin-Zulage, and of course it was always in the news that the West and the East Germany were in close relationship.
    HS: Did you hear Reagan’s speech? If you did, can you describe the initial reaction from the crowd when Reagan said, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear this wall down!”?
    HH: I was actually there with some JFK students and it was a very impressing moment. The president of the United States was present and talked to us, and of course with the famous state, “Tear down this wall”. That of course felt as if something ‘could’ move, if such a strong leader is trying to support us.
    HS: At what point did you feel confident that the country was going to be reunited? What happened to make you confident that reunification was on its way?
    HH: It was definitely not expected that Germany would be reunified at all. I was at home when the news came and I turned on the TV and couldn’t believe my eyes. So only after that happened, we were confident that Germany would be reunified.
    HS: What was your first emotion you had when you found out that Germany has been reunited?
    HH: The official reunification was honestly nothing special, because the only very exciting moment was when the wall actually came down and when Eastern people were able to come to Western part. So the official step was just a normal part of the procedure.
    HS: Can you describe me the atmosphere of Brandenburg when the wall fell?
    HH: I wasn’t there when the wall came down and didn’t go out and party with people. I was watching it from TV and that was just a sensation. It was the biggest party ever.
    HS: After the wall fell, in which part of Berlin did you want to live and why?
    HH: I always wanted to stay in West side of Berlin and it still feels funny to get to the East because it feels like a foreign part of Berlin or a foreign country. Up to now I’m actually happy when I get back to the Western city because they’re now way much better and we don’t have the Strassenbahn here.
    HS: What did it mean to you personally when the wall fell? Can you give a few examples of how your personal life changed?
    HH: The biggest change after the wall fell was that I could explore to the other side and it was really good to have the freedom and the right for all to go to the other part of Germany which always belonged to Germany.
    HS: What did you think the advantages and disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
    HH: I think that the division didn’t have any advantages. I was just happy that I didn’t have to work under the influence of the Russian side. The disadvantages were definitely that the families were ripped apart during the division and especially the East Berliners basically lived in prison, and it was hard for them to travel to the other part of the continent or world. But it was possible for us at least.
    I guess the disadvantage was also that Berlin had less chances to develop in the economical aspects, but that didn’t really affect me when I was young.
    HS: Did you (or do you), in any ways, wish that the wall remained?
    HH: No, I actually don’t wish that the wall remained or would come up again.
    HS: How long did it take your life to feel normal the fall of wall?
    HH: As I said, it took a long time to accept that there was no wall anymore. It’s still strange when you take a car and drive over the areas, which were blocked up before. And I definitely know exactly where the checkpoints were and if you go over that street it still feels weird.
    HS: Can you please explain how well the East and the West integrated after the wall came down? Can you describe some of the successes and failures of integration?
    HH: The West Berliners didn’t really have a big problem with the fall of the wall. The integration was definitely much harder for the Eastern Berliners because they really had to give up their jobs and forget what they used to do. So that must have been really hard for the Eastern Berliners. The failure is definitely that many West Berliners still feel as if they’re the winners and the Eastern Berliners as losers. That’s not really integration.
    HS: Lastly, what should young people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
    HH: As a teacher, I think it is very important for the young people, who didn’t have that experience, to know how it feels when somebody puts up a wall between families and friends. What I also feel for the 10th graders who actually deal with this question which I’m not really interested in is, that this is luckily so far in the past for them that they hardly can picture how it was. However, it actually definitely should always be remembered.

13. Interview
    Phillip:
    You were born after the wall came up, so as u grew up did u have any relations with people living on the other side (East Berlin)?
    Can:
    Yes I my grand mother lived on the other side. In East Berlin. Also my mom’s younger brother lived on the other side. So I had relatives over there. For sure my uncles wife and his sons. My cousins. I also have a half brother that lived in the east with his mom. My mom also lived in the east but she escaped in ‘71 to the west and then I was born in ‘73 in the west. So ya I had some relations to people there.
    Phillip:
    Where did you grow up?
    Can:
    I was always living in West Berlin. In Neuköln.
    Phillip:
    Did you ever go to visit your family in the east?
    Can:
    Yes we went there every Christmas and sometimes on Easter. But only day trips.
    Phillip:
    Were you surprised by how different it was?
    Can:
    I was very surprised. Because it was such a dark atmosphere. Not very colorful, grey buildings. They didn’t have the stores we had, like you couldn’t go to burger king! Ya, so it was quite boring actually. But I remember we went to the zoo. The East German zoo. That was very interesting. It was fun. But there was actually not much difference to the east zoo and the west zoo. I actually think the East German zoo was bigger. But the west zoo did look more modern. And sometimes we went to a restaurant and that was ok. But the average people looked quite poor. Although they might not have felt like it. But to me they seemed quite underprivileged.
    Phillip:
    How was it difficult getting into the east?
    Can:
    Well, you always had to pass through the border and have everything searched. You had to answer many questions like why you going there and what you are doing. Because you were not allowed to bring in newspapers or video material, or just anything from the west. So they controlled you. Which always took a long time.
    Phillip:
    Did you have any friends that were captured by the stazi?
    Can:
    No not really. Well I knew someone who climbed on the wall and fell over to the other side. He reappeared two days later. They had interrogated him. We laughed about it because even though it was quite serious. But we were just kids at the time.
    Phillip:
    Did u ever talk with the East German border guards?
    Can:
    No but we were just provoking them sometimes. We would run around the wall and giving them the finger or just stuff the kids do sometimes.
    Phillip:
    Did the police do anything about it?
    Can:
    No no! They wouldn’t react at all. They wouldn’t recognize us
    Phillip:
    We’re you angry with the East German government for putting up the wall?
    Can:
    Yes I was. As a young boy I was wondering why there was a wall and why they couldn’t travel outside. Because I wanted my family on the east to visit us too. But that of course was impossible. Later I found out that only famous important people like sports starts or during the Olympic Games they were allowed to travel out of the east part. But not the usual guy, which made me feel mad I thought that this was unfair.
    Phillip:
    So when you were younger were you curious about why there was a wall? Or did u just accept that it was there and that’s how it was?
    Can:
    Well I grew up with that. I lived about 200-300 meters away from the wall, for me it was just quite normal that there was a wall. Although now I know it was unnormal but I just grew up with that and accepted it. But we still didn’t like it.
    Phillip:
    Why didn’t you like it?
    Can:
    Because it was kind of disturbing, we were limited; we couldn’t just go in this direction if we wanted. It was just grey colored and was just stone and the whole look and appearance wasn’t nice.
    Phillip:
    How old were you when the wall came down?
    Can:
    It was in 89 so I was, I just became 16.
    Phillip:
    Were you there that night or did you watch it on TV?
    Can:
    Oh I seen it on TV. I remember people celebrating on the streets and climbing up the wall. My relatives just walked over the checkpoint and started looking at the west because they have never seen it before. They were amazed; they saw things they never saw before. And I remember that every citizen of the east part got 100DM present, welcome present. So I I guess some went shopping and bought stuff they could never buy before. And ya that’s what I remember.
    Phillip:
    What were your first feelings when you found out that the wall came down and Germany had been reunited?
    Can:
    It was happiness around. People were celebrating all over. Ya I had a positive feeling. I was thinking a lot about my relatives.
    Phillip:
    Did you get to see them immediately?
    Can:
    No but my mom met them somewhere in the west and took care of them. But I got to see them a couple days later.
    Phillip:
    How did you feel about the thousands of people just swarming into West Berlin after the wall came down?
    Can:
    I could understand them and I felt I could relate. Because they were very curious. I mean there was a huge difference between east and west.
    Phillip:
    When the wall fell did they change your future plans at all?
    Can:
    No, no they didn’t.
    Phillip:
    Did you or do you have any desires that the wall would have remained?
    Can:
    I think… it depends; it’s different for the people who lived under the regimes. But after a while I hear that many people are, how you say, arguing? They were not satisfied with the down fall of the wall. Especially with the politics. Everything became more expensive. And then the Euro came. You know the DM went away and the Euro came and with that everything went even more expensive. And many, many people said that it was because of the downfall of the wall. Because we have to support the east now. Because the infrastructure had to be built up or upgraded. It was like we had to update the east part. And it was quite expensive. And the politics were focusing very much on the east part.
    Phillip:
    Did that bother you at all?
    Can:
    No not me personally. No I was too young I was not interested in that too much but I heard a lot about it. People were complaining. That was the word I was looking for earlier. They were complaining about the politics. About the reunification. Like in the beginning it seemed that everybody was happy. But then later on there was much much complaining around. And I think that still today, there is still a gap between east and west. People say ahh the east. They called the people “die Osler” the ones from the east. Although there is no wall, it seems sometimes that there is still a wall. Because the people from the west part, many don’t like to drive or just to go into the east part. And I think it’s the other way around too. But I don’t want to generalize. I think there are also other examples because in some parts you don’t even recognize that there was the east before. But I think there is a lot of frustration with the politics and people seeking for reasons, and they say the reunification is one of the reasons why we have problems.
    Phillip:
    How well do you think the peoples of east and West Berlin have integrated?
    Can:
    Um.. ya. I think some integrated too well. And they had a lot of problems. Because they were quite naïve. They didn’t know they didn’t understand capitalism. So they just signed a lot of stuff they bought very expensive things, too expensive things. Cause they didn’t know. Cause they just wanted to buy west cars and things that were way too expensive. And I don’t know they got hurt and used. But other that that I think they integrated quite well.
    Phillip:
    How long do you think it took for Berliners to integrate. Do you think it happened immediately or did it take some time?
    Can:
    I still don’t think Berlin is very unified. I think it defiantly took a while. And it’s a long process. Berlin is still on its way, because there are examples that show that Berlin is still not 100% unified. For example, if it’s the income, people from the east make much less money than people from the west part. Just to name one example. Because last week I recognized it there was a discussion about why the people form the east were making less money than the people from the west. There is also a lot of mistrust on both sides actually. Because bad things happened to them after the wall came down.
    Phillip:
    How do you think immigrants fare in Berlin, specifically the Turkish immigrants?
    Can:
    Well I think that the first generations have had it very hard because they are proud of their own culture and they wanted to keep it up. But from generation to generation it was getting easier. Although it is still hard for them. They want to keep their own culture but they are living in Germany where they have to try and adapt to the German culture
    Phillip:
    What do you think are the primary challenges for Berlin to become completely united?
    Can:
    Well I think the the people from East Berlin still feel disadvantaged. They don’t fell treated equally. That might be the main challenge. I don’t really know I haven’t made my mind up about it.
    Phillip:
    Do you think that the government should do something about it? Do you think the government should support the east more or do you think they are doing that?
    Can:
    Like the examples I gave, if the salaries are still different. That might be a step to… to… really, to help that the salaries become equal and the people get treated equal. If there are still differences.
    Phillip:
    What do you think young people today should know or understand about the wall?
    Can:
    One message would be that a nation should be unified and separation is no good thing. Separations have a huge effect on its own people. And that if people stand up they can really achieve something. Because it was mostly the people that made the wall come down not the governments. I think to be unified is always a good thing.
    Phillip:
    Anything else that you would like to add?
    Can:
    No not really I can only say that I am glad that I am free to visit my relatives, and they can even visit me now. Even though they still live in the east. For me personally I can say that I am quite proud to have experienced it as a young boy. I have experienced the downfall I have experienced that wall. My school way was by the side of the wall. So every morning I just went to school next to the wall…
    Phillip:
    Well ok thank you very much for your time.
    Can:
    No problem it was a pleasure.

14. Interviewer: Katarina von Witzke
    Interviewee: Martine Schmidt
    Martine Schmidt was born in East Berlin in 1960. She had a normal family life, she lived with her mother and sister. At 7 she started school but was forced to finish after 10th grade because her parents weren’t part of the working class. She then did her fachschulstudium as a Heimerzieherin. She now lives in Berlin Charlottenburg and works as an Erzieherin at the Nelson Mandela International School.
    MS: November 89 that day, ja let’s think about it. I remember it was a late evening. I watched TV and the news. I saw the news on TV and there was a report with a, who was that? Well some politician who said the citizens could travel. I didn’t know what that meant. I think everyone felt that way. No one understood what that meant. Did this mean I could pack my belongings and leave? No one would’ve thought that the wall had fallen. No one would have guessed it. No one had any idea that this was happening. There were all these stories of Russia and Slovakia but that this was really happening here in Germany, no one knew. You can go now. No one thought that this would be the consequence of the Berlin wall falling. I have to say to that. My grandmother went to West Germany seven years before for living there. She lived in East Germany, then she retired then she went to West Germany I had a permit to visit her for her birthday. Her 80th birthday I could visit her. Before the wall came down I visited her three times before the wall came down. It was my first experience in West Germany. It was an unknown land to me. I visited her for maybe a week at a time and the first idea in my head when the wall fell was that I could visit my grandmother whenever I liked. And that was the greatest for me at that time and the first thing I remember I went to a phone outside, I didn’t have am phone in my flat, and I called my mom and asked her: Is it true? Can we go to West Berlin? And what does this mean? And everybody was very exited and didn’t know. At that time, I lived alone with my children. I have 2 children and they were very small, six and seven years old in November 89. And so I couldn’t go to Berlin at night and visit the wall. I had to stay at home. I had to stay at home and take care of my children. Next day I went to school and the school was quite empty. A lot of children weren’t in school and a lot of teachers weren’t in school. They had gone to West Berlin. I tried to go to visit the wall and find out is it true or not? What happens and then we had a lot of discussion and talk in school between the teachers and then I think days later I took my children. I thought it was very dangerous to go with small children. People were in the city and everywhere was a lot of chaos and I thought it was not a good I idea to take children and go to the wall. I waited for maybe a week and then my father, my children and me went to Neukölln and it was very exiting. It was so full of people I thought this is terrible but on the other hand I loved it and thought it was great. I was scared my children and I would get separated. That was my biggest fear and it was most important to me at that moment. Not to lose my children. I thought that of the wall really fell you can make a trip there next month too. But if my children get lost or something happens to them then it’s worse. My grandmother was very happy. When the wall came down and we could visit each other it was great for my family.
    KVW: When did you move to West Germany?
    MS: before the wall or later?
    KVW: When after the wall fell did you go to West Germany?
    After it was a November and in December a friend of the family and my boyfriend visited us here in Berlin it was a long time ago before. My boyfriend thought: oh I can take Martine with me to Hamburg. And he invited my children and me to come visit him over Christmas holidays in Hamburg. But it was not a good idea to marry him. And I stopped this relationship later. It was my first visit to West Berlin except when I had visited my grandmother. It wasn’t good I felt sick when we got to Hamburg and I had to be taken to the hospital. I had a single room and in East Berlin I never had a single room in a hospital. You always shared with eight or nine people and in the single room when the doors went open a lot of people looked inside. Oh, a woman from East Berlin. Can I see her? Oh, she has a nose and two ears just like us. In my room I had a phone a TV. It was a little stupid for me because I felt like an alien at this time.
    KVW: When did that change? When did you stop feeling like an alien?
    MS: It was only there in Hamburg. I think Berlin is another situation. Hamburg was so far away from Berlin and I think people there thought a lot different than the people in Berlin in Berlin a lot of people have cousins and brothers and sisters living there and they have relationships with people from East Berlin, more than people in Hamburg had with people from East Berlin. In summer of 1990 I lost my job. I had become an educator and I had taught for several years in GDR and when we had the new school the old educators were fired. So I lost my job. I got a call from a school in Charlottenburg they needed educators for afternoon care and I thought that that’s my chance to go there. It was the best thing I did in my life. It was such a friendly atmosphere, not like in Hamburg. Not like an alien. I didn’t feel like an alien and it was the colleagues who were so nice. It was very friendly and open and there was a lot of feeling for people there with different biographies. It was so as if such a good start to work there. It was great. That was seventeen years ago. And I never went back to east Berlin and I think it was a good time to learn how people in West Berlin think and I think it’s the best possibility to learn. I have colleagues who see this the same way.
    KVW: That’s good to hear. So you must have grown up under the pressure of the wall, how was that?
    MS: It was normal.
    KVW: Really?
    MS: I didn’t know it any different and I never felt repressed or held back because I didn’t know that there was any other way of growing up. I didn’t feel like I couldn’t travel either. I could. My family had a small cottage on the Ostsee. My grandfather had build it. We drove there every year. It was the greatest for us. My family wouldn’t even have had the money to go anywhere else. I would have wanted to go other places but we couldn’t have anyway because we didn’t have enough money. Going to the Ostsee was the greatest thing that could have happened to us. We had a large group of friends there. As a child I never felt restrained by not being allowed to go to Spain. Later, when I look back I regret not being able to go. I really would have liked to have learned the language. But when I was a child I never really thought of this.
    KVW: Did you hear a lot about the west and how things were different?
    MS: Yes I had an aunt she died years ago in west Berlin we had a lot of contact and through that we had a lot of exchange with people living in west Germany It was a world that was totally unknown to me.
    KVW: In conclusion, what should young people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the fall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
    Yeah I’ve been thinking about this. I noticed this with my family. My children can’t really differentiate between this. What came before and after the wall fell. But I think that one really has to see both sides objectively. You can’t reduce one side to just being the Stasi, but you also have to see the social conditions that were made there. A lot of it didn’t work over a period of time we all know. But there was a lot of effort there to for example to assist women. What is lacking today is women not being supported in everyway with their children. They helped women in everyway. After the wall fell there was a huge break in that and in that sense I think you have to do this in all countries. What did this country do well and what did it do wrong. Of course there are also negative sides to everything but you must also see the good. And you need to keep looking at things objectively. I am sick and tired of everything being reduced to one thing that it didn’t do well. I think this is the same in all other countries. You can’t reduce it for one mistake it made. Sometimes it doesn’t function. This is why I think history has to be extensive and objective. You have to be fair but this depends on the people who write it.
    What was extremely important to me, since I work in this area was the education. Today it’s okay for a child to just not come to class for a week and everyone just thinks, oh he was on vacation for a week. Or maybe he was sick. Before the wall fell I had an insight to the child’s home life. Does he have his own room or does he share with 4 others, what are his parents like. Are the parents divorced and so on. If a child is having problems not in my class I have no idea what’s wrong because I don’t know what is going on. Also, when the children were done with school we as the teachers would help them find jobs or places where they could continue their schooling. Today everyone is on their own after they’re out of school. For instance my son has many phases of unemployment.
    KVW: How was schooling for you?
    MS: I started elementary school normally with 7 years and then went to tenth grade. I was not allowed to continue with school and do my Abitur because my parents weren’t a part of the worker’s class. I still regret not having my Abitur very much today.
    KVW: Thank you very much. I understand it was difficult for you to speak English and you did very well. I’m impressed. Thanks again.

15. F:Frances Copeland
    K:Karen Blazing
    F: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present
    K: Okay, I’m Karen Blazing, I was born in ’77, and I was born and raised in Berlin, Germany. I was raised bilingual, and I went to JFK School, like you, from kindergarten until 12th grade. I currently work for the American Embassy in Berlin and well…that’s how I met you! (Laughs)
    F: Well, since you went to JFK (which is really great), since there were Americans and Germans at school (nods), were there ever any conflicts between them?
    K: Well…actually all of my friends were Americans, and we all got along really great. There was never really any friction or any trouble between Germans and Americans; we were one great, happy family. Definitely no division. Except for the language barrier every now and then…Other than that everyone got along. I had a lot of American friends and I am still in touch with a lot of them that I went to school with at JFK. Actually it’s funny because when the wall was up, JFKS was in the American sector and we all lived together, in this area, Zehlendorf. And so this area was PACKED with Americans.
    F: Were the Americans all from the government?
    K: No, um, mostly was from the military, yeah because we had the American sector here, and so a lot of the children were, their fathers in the army. To, you know, take care of us!
    F: Were there still American teachers?
    K: Oh yeah, it was about half-half. Probably just like now..not sure what it’s like now. But there was um, I remember half of my classes being in English, the other half in German. It was, yes, about 50% in English and 50% German.
    F: were there any family members, or friends on the other side?
    K: No, no, my mother, didn’t have any family members on the east side…which was very lucky for her. (nods) I remember our neighbor she had a cousin that lived in the east! But as for my family, all of our relatives lived in either West Berlin… or Canada. (Laughs) so there was no one in East Berlin that was divided from our family.
    F: well, did you know anyone, kids at school, that family, lived on the other side-
    K:Oh no, not until…well actually I didn’t know anybody, whos family member lived in east berlin not until, um until the wall came down (nods), I didn’t get to know people in east berlin until the wall came down. Before that, I had no east german friends, I didn’t know anybody until the wall came down, not until the wall came down, and then one of our classmates from east berlin.
    F: Were they different in any way?
    K: Um, they were different…and I have to be careful of what I say (chuckles)…
    F: Oh no, well I’ve just heard there was an interview that reported of one side saying they were more spoiled than the other…?
    K: it was definitely the other way around, the people from west berlin, we were the ones that were spoiled, according to the east Berliners. Because we has everything! We had all of the western products, we had u, you know like simple things like coca-cola, jeans, just… just things that are completely normal to us, like everyday things. Sodas! And we had all these American products…and people in east berlin, they only had things produced in Eastern germany…the Russian side. And they didn’t have a lot of things that we had and so in their eyes, we were very spoiled. And we could buy everything, we could travel everywhere, they were basically…it seemed like they were basically in prison. They coujldnt leave, they couldn’t buy anything that was from the west, and the, the east Berliners ther were um…like I can still tell now who’s from east berlin and whos from the west (laughs)
    F:Reallly?
    K: yeah, even though the walls been down forever, I can still tell who’s from the west and who’s from the east…and it’s because…they talk different um-
    F: How so? Like an accent-
    K: Yeah, and also they have different words, for different things… and, and even their own slang. Um, and sometimes even the way they dress (chuckles). Ha, it might be really-or it sounds nvery superficial, or ahhh, cocky, but yes I can still tell you know, whos from the west and who’s from the east.
    F: That’s very interesting! The difference, you were so close…quite scary.
    K: It..it really is. And um, now, I mean landscape wise, you can’t really tell what’s East and what’s West or what used to be East and what used to be West…but when the wall first came down, the difference was like, black and white! I mean in West Berlin we had everything. I mean we had beautiful buildings and everything was clean and the air wasn’t polluted…there wasn’t any rundown buildings. But once you crossed the border, everything was just…gray and rundown, and streets weren’t… weren’t nice…all rocky. And houses were just..Just falling apart. I mean it was just…it was poor. It was really poor. And, I mean it smelled very….there was a lot of pollution because they only had one type of car, which caused great pollution. So could, not only can you SEE the difference, but you can also SMELL the difference.
    F: I understand a little, I mean I went to Alexanderplatz, right on the border of East and west right? I mean…the atmosphere felt different to me…maybe because of the history itself I mean … I don’t-
    K: Right, it’s just different right? I mean I don’t know how to explain it…but you know, it sounds horrible but I don’t feel …at home until I hit West Berlin. Even though the wall is gone, it’s just…I don’t feel comfortable until I’m on the West side, because that’s where I grew up, that’s where I know my barriers. East Berlin is just so..it’s just different. Its um, I don’t know my way around, and people well… (stutters) and I can sense they’re…Well, they had a different upbringing. And sometimes its hard for me to relate to. And I just, I just don’t feel at home. And East Berlin, even though Berlin is my city…its just…
    F: What was it like going to school during this time?
    K:Well I remember on November 9th, when the wall came down, I was thirteen I think? Or fourteen? (laughter) well you can do the math it’s been a while! (laughter) well I remember I was in bed, it was a school night, and my mom turned on the news, that the wall came down, and the checkpoints had been opened and um….she couldn’t believe it! I mean she was there when the wall was built. I mean, for her, that was just the…biggest thing. The biggest greatest news (smiles). And she made me and my brothers get out of bed, and get dressed, cause she wanted us to be part of history. And she made us get in the car, and we drove down to the Kudamm. She just couldn’t believe it! And so yes my parents in the car, and we drove down , and the next thing we knew, all of these East German cars were coming our way. That’s when we knew that the checkpoints had been opened, and the wall was coming down! And so then we went to the Brandenburg gate, and there was…a trillion people! I mean, everyone was just rushing out! I mean it was…
    F: I’ve seen pictures of people climbing over the walls, running to the other side. People did that?
    K: Yeah! I mean they weren’t allowed to. There were still police guarding the wall and you werent allowed to climb on the wall, you weren’t allowed to um, chip off pieces. I mean weren’t allowed to but we did it anyway (laughs). Yes, people were crying and hugging each other. And it was just, it was very emotional. And I remember the next day, the schools closed. Everyone just said no because it was such great news and I don’t remember actually …when I went back to school two days later what the atmosphere was like? That’s just something I don’t remember I mean I was so little…and I’m not sure if Americans were even aware of the situation, some of them just because they hadn’t lived here that long maybe? And even some of them didn’t know there even was a wall…I don’t even remember..But I do remember November 9th…I mean it was just… it was like…you can’t even put it into words or it would lose its meaning…I mean, it was just so emotional. it was very, very Intense. People that had just been split up for so many years were all of a sudden free. And I even remember… And I remember the police, that are usually very strict, were not giving parking tickets for weeks! They were just so happy. Every one was so happy. And everyone was friendly to one another, which is also very untypical for Germans..and Ican say that cause im german (Laughter). Um, we usually keep to ourselves, we don’t open up very easily, and all of a sudden something that like happens, and we were all just so…so social! And we talked to everybody, and everyone was just so friendly to one another, I mean it was just, one big party! (laughs)
    F:During the day, did you know what was going on or did you know something might happen?
    K:um, I remember my mom did..and everyone was just very suspicious about it and everyone was ust like “Oh, they’re just talking. It’s never going to happen. There’s no way the wall is coming down.” And so when it did come down, it was just a great big shock to everyone. Yes, I did hear, a few days before, they were talking about it, but no one took it very seriously.
    F: How would you describe the protests?
    K: …well, gosh, I was just way too young for that. I didn’t really, I was too young.
    F: you found out about your mom telling you, right? Did you immediately contact a family member or friend?
    K: My mom definitely did. I… no, not me. I didn’t have any friends overseas; all of my friends were at school so not really. Well I do remember my mom called her sister in Canada and…her friends in the U.S. and everyone just couldn’t believe it. And it was in the news I mean worldwide. And I think it took a long time for my mom to realize what happened.
    F: Was there anyone you saw at the wall? Friends or extended family?
    K: No there was way too many people there. Tons! I just remember collecting stones there from the wall (Laughs), which we still have of.
    F: do you remember what time it happened? What time you went down to see it?
    K:well I remember I was already in bed, and it was dark. And I was angry at my mom for dragging me out of bed (Laughter) and I was like “Mom, this is stupid!” I mean I was really young. I don’t really remember the time… My mom watched the news and all…all I remember was it was dark out and It was cold, and I had to get in the car (Laughs)
    F: what was your first emotion you felt when you found out that Germany had been reunited?
    K:…Haha, I was like “cooool.” (laughs). Well you see, I was so young, so I never really thought of it…Growing up in the west…
    F:Did you learn about it a lot in school?
    K:Well, not so much, we learned a lot about American history… and maybe because I went to a German-American school, um, and im pretty sure…yeah I learned about east and West berlin, and the wall…but, I dunno when the wall came down, it didn’t really that much to me, than my mom, cause I only knew about west berlin…and I didn’t have any family in the East, and for me…all of a sudden just got bgigger! And since I had everything….i can see why they call us spoiled because we had shopping malls…movie theaters, and so it was definitely interesting, when the wall came down, to go to East Berlin and see what it was like.
    F: when did you go?
    K: Oh, about a few days later! Yep, like 2 days after
    F: A few days later…I bet there was a lot of traffic coming in and out of each side.
    K: Yeah through the Checkpoints. There was especially a lot of traffic coming out of the East to go to the West. There was…a LOT of cars, tons. And then what you did is you just parked the car and just walk around.
    F: So the city stopped when the wall came down? Did trains run?
    K: Oh, no the trains went, but pretty much all of the schools closed. There was people everywhere. There were tons of people. I would go outside walking around and there were so many people! Tons of people in the East and the West; but I say more in the West than in the East. For a couple of days everything just…slowed down and stopped. All the schools were out and it seemed like no one was working.
    F: So when the East side collapsed and the Soviets left, what happened to everyone’s jobs on the East side? Did they have to go looking for someplace to work in the West?
    K: No, um…I think many businesses opened up and the East really expanded and all of these companies came so it’s not like life shut down over there. And a lot of people who lived in the East decided to stay in the East because it was their home. That was just where they grew up and probably just went to the West to see it, but it was still so scary to move there.
    F: What was it like?
    K: It was…I thought it was scary to be honest. I….I didn’t like it. It was like a ghost town.
    F: So everyone left East Berlin when the wall came down?
    K: it was funny because all of the East Berliners came to the west, and all of the West Berliners went to the East! (Laughs). Just to see each others city. I mean we were closed off for so llong, and we didn’t know what to expect, and most of the west Berliners never went to east Berlin. And they didn’t know what our city looked like, and I just never knew what east berlin looked like! And when we drove there…I was just…I didn’t like it because it was just like, really like a ghost town. Everything was all dark and gloomy, and it was just….so different. It was really idffernet. Its was like going from…a westernized country, to a… third world country. Like that kind of difference. I mean, they were civilized of course, don’t get me wrong, they just didn’t have much. And yeah..asked me how I felt when germany got unified? I mean, its great, its, what we wanted. That we are one city. But probably because I was so young, it probably doesn’t mean as much as it did. And now you cant even tell the difference of east and west anymore. They put up so much money trying to rebuild it it looks great.
    F: right! I actually heard they put so much money into it, it looks better than the west now (Laughter0
    K: Yeah! And alexanderplatz and the malls…and even potsdamer platz looks so different. I mean they built up a casino (laughter) They’re done a great job. All of the buildings are so beautiful and well made, and it looks absolutely perfect. But a few years ago, it was…
    F: Did anything change for your family?
    K:No…not really. It was a very exciting time, but nothing really changed for my family.
    F:was there a lot of talk about it at school?
    K:Yeah, there was. I mean um, I think, whatever subject we had going on whether it be history class, or geography class, it was about the Berlin wall. So I think it was awesome to help the Americans understand what happened, and about our history, and what happened to the Berlin wall…
    F: haha, I think everyone should know about the history…
    K:Oh, I have a great DVD about the Berlin wall, and what it was like, and you see people storming through the wall, and all of the cars, and gosh, you see what I went through and what I saw, and see all of the pictures. And see all of the people with the 80’s hair! (laughter) and you know, all of the Americans that were there…
    F: How was that? What did you think when so many Americans were in Berlin at that time?
    K: gosh, I personally, I liked it when the Americans were here! A lot of West Berliners, and its mean to say, but MISS that time…we kind of liked it when , we had the sectors, because well, we loved having the Americans here. It was just…its hard to explain, it was a different kind of atmosphere here because…
    F:Americans are loud…
    K: (Laughter) But in a good way of course! We, seriously liked it…they brought a lot of American culture, they brought a lot of…LIFE into the city. And after they all had to leave, A LOT of Germans we sad! (Laughter) no really, like we had goodbye parades! And you can ask any German who lived on the West and they will all tell you the same thing; that they were sad when they left. And I think also because the Americans helped so much for the Germans, with the Airlift and rebuilding the city, that the Germans were so grateful to them, it was hard to see good people leave.
    F: How long did it take before the Americans had to depart?
    K: A couple of years, it took a while before the Germans, unified together and you know, signed the papers and all. Probably took maybe a year or two. And I can’t remember what happened to the military friends…i think some of them left I can’t remember it was so long ago!
    F: So where you lived, were there a lot of Americans?
    K: oh, I was definitely surrounded by Americans…I actually lived in this area. You know, the Krumme Lanke area? Yeah, that’s where I lived and that was one of the American sectors. It was great. All of my friends lived there and I had a great time growing up with them.
    F: In what ways is Berlin a better place, or not a better place…ever since the wall fell down?
    K: hmm, I think we have lots more tourist attraction. A lot of people knew there was a wall, and now tourist they want to come and see East and West and what it was like…other than that…well we’re a historic city…well, one of the bad things about the wall coming down, is that it’s such a big city now. When it was still divided, it was easier to control. And in the West, the central place you would go to was the Kudamm. But now, it’s so huge, there are a million central areas..main spots..and there isn’t just one central place and the worst part is, is that they’re all spread apart from one another! Its just..not as cozy as it used to be!
    F: do you have a lot of friends from East Berlin?
    K: No, actually..its funny because when I was in college, a few people, I say half of my class, was from the east, and you know, we don’t mingle. It was weird..i think the reason was was just that we were brought up differently. I cant relate to any of their stories, I cant relate to what they had to go through and they cant understand my upbringing, or my way of living. And so um, the way that it was was that the West Berliners always stayed in their groups, and the East Berliners stayed in there’s. It wasn’t that we didn’t get along, it was just that you know, naturally people will go to who they are familiar with, or who they are comfortable with. We talked and we would acknowledge each other, and tolerated each other, we just didn’t have anything in common. And it’s still like that today, I don’t have have any friends from east Berlin. Um, and even now, all of my West German friends don’t have any friends from East Berlin…and …there’s still a mental wall. You hardly see West Berliners go out with East Berliners, and that’s just the way it’s been brought up.
    F: In ways were East Berliners brought up differently than West Berliners?
    K: they were um, very much told what to think…to what to do…conditioned.
    F: Did they realize it at all? The conditioning, I mean.
    K: I think they did realize it after they came to West Berlin and what was going on in the West…they were just forced into a lot of things that…seemed right to them? But…it was forced, so they didn’t really have a choice I think. That’s a good question…I remember one girl in my class, her dad was accused of working for..its called a STAZE, the countries secret service? And they made sure that people weren’t smuggling things from the West to the East….Because we Western Berliners were allowed to go from West to east, to visit people. And so, it was just very patrolled there. And if they found out that you were spying for the West, or doing something forbidden by the Soviets, or the East government, you got punished. And, her dad was actually put into a freezer…and he was well…tortured. Because they wanted to get a confession out of him..and wanted to find out what he was really doing, or doing something he wasn’t supposed to be doing…and he survived, but…it was very…they um…they were just very ..Controlling…and if they had any suspicion about you, you were in…biiig trouble. I mean, they had some very very scary methods of getting information out of you. I mean it wasn’t like, they pulled your fingernails out and stuff, but they really did do stuff like; put you into an ice box, or they put you into a room with no light for DAYS. It was really no physical torture, it was all mental. So they eventually just started telling them stuff, just so they wouldn’t have to go through such gruesome things. And that is something that would NEVER happen in the West.
    F: Wow, you must’ve felt very safe.
    K: Oh yeah , I felt really lucky. I was very safe. And I’ve met this other girl who was from East
    Berlin, and she actually…she liked the way she was brought up. She had no complaints and she misses some of the childhood things. And they had like a girl scout kind of thing, but they all actually HAD to do that…it wasn’t voluntary, they were forced into it and sang east German folk songs…
    F:Sang them in class once in a while…
    K: (laughs) yeah I don’t know what that was about, (laughter) but yeah. She had good memories.
    F: So when East Berlin kids came to JFK –
    K: Um, Yeah. It was hard for them because they had to take an English test, and in east berlin you don’t learn English, you learn Russian. And so we didn’t have many East Berlin kids cause it would’ve taken them too long to learn English. And yeah growing up they only had german and Russian
    F: so when they came, what was the students reaction to them? Did they have problems fitting in?
    K: Oh, it was fine. There wasn’t any tension. It was just like “oh, you’re from East Berlin.” There was no awkwardness it was just like” so tell me about it.” We were curious.
    F: In what ways is Berlin a less desirable city?
    K: Um, its too big…and what I don’t like about East Berlin.. this might sound stupid..the trains on the road?
    F:Oh! I know what you’re talking about. Something BAHN? (laughter)
    K: StrassenBahn – right! (laughs) you can walk and get there faster! (laughter) and when im driving my car and I see those stupid things, it drives me crazy when I see those things right next to me? I freak out! (laughs). Yep, that’s all I can think about of what I don’t like is those little street trains that go really slow and are ON MY LANE.
    F: do you go to East Berlin often?
    K: No, I don’t really. When im there I don’t…no I don’t.
    F: so did anyone you know ever move to East Berlin, who was originally from the west.
    K: actually now , East Berlin is more desirable, because that’s where all the clubs are, and all the bars are (laughs), and the restaurants….so a lot of people would move to the East and its somewhat cheaper than.. former west. So people would just move over there now. Cause that’s where the life is now! I guess if you want to go out, you need to go to the East.
    F: you see Western Berliners treating Eastern Berliners badly? Or vice Versa?
    K: you know, I don’t thing we treat each other differently, or treat each other badly…its still…the west is in the West and the East is in the East. Yeah, so it’s…we don’t have anything against each other, but you know…we just don’t have anything in common. Just different. ..You would think that since it was long ago it wouldn’t be like that but you know…Well I think you’re generation, there won’t be any of that, you guys will be fine. But mine, since we were there for a little of it…we’re still trying to…grow past all of that.
    F: So, let’s say, if we compared ’97 to ’07, has this Berlin wall effect changed on people? Like are people still as segregated as they were before?
    K: well…I think it gets better and better every year. Um , and I think eventually, there won’t be a mental wall. And I think one day Berlin will be a completely united city and no one will know who’s from the East and who’s from the West. But I think, it’s gonna take a while…I think the younger people will though, not realize…and east and west will mix up which is great. Also because the East Berliners have come to the west, its been really great for the people of Berlin. It won’t matter.
    F: what should young people know, who were not alive at the time, know about the fall?
    K: Um… I think they should know the history, that there was a wall. I think they should know why it was built, and why it came down. And what it was like when the wall came down, what it was like when it up went up. I think its important, living in the city of Berlin, and calling yourself a Berliner, you should always know the history of your own city.
    F: I know when 9/11 happened; I didn’t realize how important it was until a couple of years later. Was it the same for you when the Wall fell? Did it strike you as very important or something that just happened to be news?
    K: Yeah, that’s exactly how I felt. I didn’t realize what the situation was like until the wall came down. Because it just didn’t…concern me…. And it sounds so horrible but you know, it really didn’t. I mean in West Berlin…I had it real good. And I didn’t realize how East berlin was not well off, until yeah, it came down. And I saw pictures on TV, and East Berliners came to the West. And I think its really important for kids to know how it used to be, how it is now, and yeah. Just learn the history.
    F: So when you were younger, did you ever hear any stories of East Berlin being better than the west? For example, did you ever feel like “Man, I wish I lived in East Berlin because of so and so…”
    K: Well they had a stronger…whats the word…togetherness? You know how it is when you’re…when people have the same problem, they all stick together? I thnk that’s how East Berlin had…and they still have that now. When you go through something horrible, I think you tend to sitck together more, and that’s something they had…whereas West Berliners had their own lives and it was fine, so we didn’t really care about the other person.
    F: did things start getting expensive after the wall came down?
    K: well I remember when the wall came down, my family went shopping in the East (laughs) ,I mean It was really cheap! You couldn’t really buy much, but simple things like, school supplies, were so cheap in east berlin. Um, and everything was outrageously expensive in the West for East Berliners. So for a present, every east Berliner got a hundred marx, which Is I think..about 50 euros. And they stood in line, at the banks, and they all got their reward…and they were shocked about our prizes…and we were especially were shocked about theirs! I mean food was cheap, everything! I remember my parent bought our school supplies there cause it was so much cheaper. But no, when the Americans left, prices didn’t change. The Prices, as far as I know, did really affect Americans either.. It wasn’t until Germany was unified that, years later, they changed our currency to DM to Euro. THAT was horrible. All Germans hate it. Prices are so expensive.
    F:What are the primary challenges facing Berlin today?
    K: Okay, in east Berlin, there’s still a lot of Racism…like, you hear a lot in the news about…Neo-Nazi’s? And they tend to be more in the East than the west. And that’s one thing that definitely needs to be changed. One thing that’s not good for Germany. Big problem. I mean there are not a lot of them, but they’re there. And even if there’s one of them…it’s a problem. Yeah, they have secret little hideouts, and in the east, they’re a lot of underground, right wing parties, which, in my opinion just need to be….and right wing parties, are like, supporters of the Nazi party. And in Germany… we all have a great right to speech, and freedom to say whatever we want. But I think Germany needs to learn to set a limit. To abolish those political parties that just, take it to the extreme and say that “All foreigners need to leave Germany,” or that “foreigners are taking away our jobs.” Um, I think that’s one thing that Germany needs to…calm down, not allow to form. But in Germany, when you have a certain percent of people vote for a party, that party may be created. Legal. Its good when its GOOD…but not for stuff like that!
    F: How long did it take before the Berlin wall news started died down?
    K: Well…Never (laughter) well there’s still bits and pieces of the wall left…that’s a good question…it didn’t happen overnight of course. Maybe a year or two? They had these huge cranes that would take parts of the wall apart…I mean that thing was huge. I mean the east side Gallery is fantastic.
    F: Was there anything challenging you faced after the wall fell? Anything change?
    K: No, not really. No for me at least. It was just a really exciting time in life. It really changed more for the people in the East than in the West. They were just…completely overwhelmed with the west.

16. Berlin, Wednesday November 28th
    Oral History Interview about the fall of the wall in Berlin with Dr. Peterson:
    Interviewee: Tilman Miech
    Tilman: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    Dr. Peterson: I was born in NYC, raised in NYC, I attended college in NYC and then worked on a masters degree in Colorado, also in history by the way, European history and after that, for three years I returned to NY and taught in a black community inner city school in NYC in Ocean Hills Browns which is in Brooklyn. And then from there I decided to work on my doctorate and went to Buffalo NY, where I then pursued the study of European intellectual history and received a doctorate in European history, intellectual history, political history. While working on the doctorate and the book, I lived in Mainz, Germany, in the 70’s and 80’s and also went back and forth between the USA and Germany. I spent quite a bit of that time also in Berlin, a divided Berlin and went back after the dissertation in the book to 1981 back to NY only to return back to a divided berlin in 1983 when I started when I started working at the Kennedy school. And I have been at the Kennedy school now since 1983.
    Tilman: In what part of Berlin did you live?
    Dr. Peterson: I lived originally in Charlottenburg obviously west, and in Steglitz, Schöneberg Steglitz.
    Tilman: Please recall your opinions towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    Dr.Peterson: (thinking then says) I’d like to go back a few statements to that of my very first trip to Berlin, and I have pictures of that somewhere, it was in 1963, two years after the wall was build. I think it was 63… yeah it was. I was a student visiting the City, I was an exchange student working in a post office in Frankfurt. And so I experienced Berlin shortly after the wall went up and saw the horrors and at that point coincidently was staying in Charlottenburg, and saw the soviets pressuring the westerners to give up on Berlin as it where, they had little tricks for example, super sonic booms of their planes going over the city and my first introduction to Berlin actually was landing at Tempelhof airport, and then from there that night staying with this family, German family in Charlottenburg and having these supersonic booms happening night and day, and windows breaking and so I was then, at that point introduced to the, not just the inconvenience of this but to say the tricks played, the efforts made by the Soviet Union and the east, I might add to turn the public opinion in Berlin away, western Berlin away from the east to get them to support to say, the removal of the Americans from the sector and the, if you will Soviet policy at that point. How did I feel about it? At that early stage in the 60’s I was a student, a sophomore in College I was horrified at what I saw in east Berlin when I visited, I can remember seeing standing there looking at Hitler’s bunker, it had previously disappeared. The City was a complete disaster, so those are my initial feelings, I of course felt really bad for my friends because they, as Berliners could not enter the east, they were not permitted to go to the east at all, later agreements would enable them to do so, that was worked out under the Brandt government. But that was later.
    When I moved to Berlin in 83 it was much easier to deal with east Berlin, all though it was still bloody inconvenient in crossing as an American we had to line up at Friedrichstrasse, we had to wait, I don’t know how long until they gave us the day visa to go across we had to pay a certain amount of money, it kept changing I don’t know, of course we wound up also smuggling east money into the country, which was totally illegal but did so anyway and had various places to hide it, which I am sure you can imagine, and so we had all of these little tricks that we did and then would buy books in east Berlin and come out with my whole library of east Berlin books, about east German history which are very useful by the way. And then also I would like to add, I had friends as East German historians, who I visited and worked with etc. And my graduate advisor was very much in terms of supporting an East German historiography and writing, so while there was always this clash of ideologies on the one hand, there was on the other hand still a dialogue that was made possible and I enjoyed that dialogue very much and had continued to profit from it because I have friends in the East.
    To be continued…
    We had to interrupt the Interview at this point because Dr. Peterson had to go somewhere but continued it after school.
    Dr . Peterson: One or two additional experiences going into or traveling across the border. I think I left off with the discussion of the early 60’s after the building of the wall. I can also recall then the period of ’83 the circumstances were much better I think I mentioned that as well, yet it was still very, very problematic. And it was subject, to lets say, overturning the part of the East German authorities. More often than not one having crossed the border, they would, the East German authorities were told, certainly not to put a human face on it, they were exceptionally rude if you asked a question that they regarded as impertinent, they would let you stand there or sit in your car, If you were going across by car, till whenever, and it could be 10 minutes it could be 2 hours, and there would be just no discussing the problem with them. So it was very, very shall we say uncivil. Also I had the same experience traveling through the DDR traveling with students going to The Hague, American embassy students were not permitted or military students were not permitted to take regular means of transportation in the DDR, I think that was probably an America restriction, they had to go on a special embassy, or military train, that caused us problems. And than lets say in the course of time I met people that I knew from, or was introduced to in Rostock and to visit them for a Thanks Giving weekend, would have to apply for a visa, a special visa that took quite a bit of time to get, and then once getting into Rostock, or the village where we were staying, one would have to then immediately the following day register with the East German Police, that one was in deed in there and got the permit. This had further consequences which I later found out about with the fall of the wall, because I found out that I have a rather lengthy file with the Stazi, and according to my friend, who was working at that time with the East German TV, he got his file, the Kennedy school and those of us who visited, were labeled, this was labeled as a center for the CIA. I was supposed to be, along with others a member of the CIA nonsense. I haven’t yet applied for my file, there were other reasons why I was listed in it and I know also the person who spied on us there. He came out and said that he had done that, for political reasons he was pressured to do so.
    So that gives us some indications as to the experiences directly with the situation, crossing the border experiences, people in the DDR. I do have one little anecdote on it I mentioned living in NYC and when I was there, I think it was in 82/83 two renowned East German Historians came to the USA and my graduate advisor asked if I would put these two historians up in my small apartment in Brooklyn which I did, and when they got there, two days later than planned because they couldn’t get their flight permits out of Czechoslovakia but anyway they got there and they came up to my little flat in Brooklyn, and I had two mattresses on the floor and I had an old bed sheet and it was in the form of an American flag, with the pillow having the stars and the stripes were the bed linen. So the debate between them was which one of these East German historians was going to sleep under the American flag. So we laughed about that for a while, and I still have contact with them, obviously they are respected historians now in the united Germany.
    My experience when the wall came down, I assume that’s on the list, is the fact that, was it in the fact the night of November 8th to November 9th 1989, I went to bed on November 8th the world was still in tact, ad on the morning of November 9th I was to teach, and it still exists, a profile course first and second hour on Friday morning, I believe that’s the case, and at 6 in the morning I got up to hear from what I usually listen to BBC and they were talking about the Wall opened up, and the first thing I talked to a friend that stayed the night, was that this can’t be that this is sort of a war of the worlds and that this is absolute nonsense and shifted the channel to a German one and indeed the same nonsense was coming through and so I couldn’t believe my ears, went downstairs on my way to school, found that in the town people were driving around in Trabbies all over the pace with the stinking gas coming out. This business will remain in my mind. So when I got to school this is one of the things that I regret was that, because the Principle demanded that we continue instruction, to hold my students in class as imposed to doing what I should have done would have been to use my senses and say lets get the heck out and go with everybody to the happening. But I didn’t and we had class, and these former students are now friends and they never forget at reunions to mention my cruelty and lack of perception. Having mentioned that, the other memory I have of that day, November 9th, is getting out of school as fast as my feet could travel, and making arrangements to then, since I lived in Schönberg at that point, a couple blocks away from Rathhaus Schönberg, got there for the meeting with Kohl flew in from Poland, Willie Brandt was there, Kohl of course spoke, the mayor of Berlin I am trying to think of who it was, who it might have been at this moment, but I listened to them and then went back to my house where there was a big unification party, well it wasn’t really a unification party it was an opening of the wall party, we still didn’t know what that meant, and then after that we then all fed ourselves and had a couple of drinks, went downtown to actually cross the border. I remember getting lost, it was amazing, masses of people out there it was a happening, and somehow we got separated and I wound up in the Tiergarten. There was a part of the wall and a bridge going over to the other side, I can’t exactly remember where the location was, but there were lights and I remember seeing a West German boarder person handing a cup of coffee to his East German counterpart and the East German counterpart seeing me with my mouth open staring and the East German counterpart saying, if you creep over to the other side there is a big whole in the wall so you could just go through there, so I didn’t have to wait with the masses going through. So then I wound up taking that alternative route, which would have been impossible and basically was in no mans land and was petrified. I was actually nervous to the ends degree, and had been so trained that I went over to the East German guard and said excuse me (which is ridiculous) I precede to ask if I have to do a formal exchange of currency to get in and here I am who crossed the god damn thing illegally to start of with, and so I was like really wondering and he said so where are you from? And of course I said since I was speaking German with him , well I have this passport and I took out my blue American passport, and he precedes to say “ach du scheisse” something like look at what they have now done they have now issued new passports and I said no I am an American because he thought that in the meantime the East German authorities had pulled more rug out from under there feet. So then having said that the guy turned the guy said having seen me with the American passport he said something like “ soweit kommt es noch, jetzt kommen sie alle unter der mauer” So its now come that far that the Americans are now creeping through under the wall. So then I thought I should maybe go a little bit further but I got really nervous in the dismay of maybe the being alone there nobody knows I crossed it, the uncertainty was great, as we now know it could have had other results and I basically crept back from whence I came, through there and felt relieved to get the hell out, but watched the great party happening. Those were my experiences with the fall of the wall. Ku’dam filled with bananas all over the place, going into Tschibo they gave out free coffee to all of the people, we enjoyed free beer which was just everywhere, and then my friends from Rostock, that was Friday night and the following day we were wondering would these people be driving down, and of course they were, and a friend called up and said, his name is Klaus from the East Klaus and Monica have just arrived I spotted them down in my hof. Can you go to the American PX and pick up some frozen Irgendetwas (Something) for us to eat. So I wound up getting some food and we ended up just partying al night. So basically all the tears that had been shed over the years and the division and separation that we always felt leaving our friends behind in the East and they could never visit us, that of course changed on November 9th.
    Tilman: Sounds great. So on November 9th did you see any problems that might occur in the future with the wall having fallen? Or where you afraid of any problems that might occur? During the unification of Germany?
    Dr. Peterson: I didn’t think of anything, and I don’t really believe in the euphoria that many people thought of the, perhaps economic consequences. The first is really one of astonishment one of jubilation outright euphoria, that’s the only thing I can say, and a mass of enthusiasm and good will. I have never seen so much good will. A couple of weeks later perhaps there were nasty signs of it but for the most part good will every where. I have an eastern license plate, because I have a house in the east, (former east) in the state of Brandenburg, and I once parked here recently and somebody screamed at me as an “Ossie” and I turned and said, “but I am an American Ossie” and so yeah… well But those thoughts weren’t there on the initial days of it.
    Tilman: Okay, so earlier you mentioned that you knew the person that spied on you while the wall was still in place, how did that make you feel?
    Dr. Peterson: He only did/outed as it were after the event. And where as my friend from the east, Klaus and his girlfriend are very bitter about it, this person came to visit me and outed, and I have no hard feelings towards him or his wife. I am curious, and I should be curious about what’s in the file, and I’ll do that I just haven’t, I know what’s in it so it doesn’t matter. What I am interested in is because of the book…doesn’t matter I don’t want to get into all of that. But there is more information in it than simply that by the nature of the topic that I did research in. It’s a political topic, dealing with the east, and so I think that that, I had problems in the last years of the DDR crossing. I was always, not because I was smuggling money, but because I was just being me, in crossing the border and I was never able to explain it but they put some sort of sign in my passport, and so I had problems crossing then at the end. Where as my other friends would go across very quickly, I wound up getting searched basically and stopped and questioned and every time I tried to get the hell out again it was just a nuisance, and I never put 2 and 2 together I don’t know how it happened and I’d like to find and I’d like to find out what that caused, if it was the link with the person in Rostock, or it was a political situation, I can’t say.
    Tilman: Did your thoughts about the whole situation change at all, now that you are looking back on it?
    Dr. Peterson: No, no not at all, not for a moment. I can tell you how long it took to believe, that it was actually true. As I mentioned I bought a house in the former east, in a village, a very tiny village, 180 people and we were the only westerners, the first westerners, not to mention the only Americans, in this village. So we were there, and I think it was the end of 1990 probably 1991, yeah 1991 certainly. We were there is this broken down farm house cleaning, and I look out the window, which is facing the river and I see two huge trucks parked by the trees and these trucks are filled with Russians, each one of them holding a Kalashnikov and I was thinking Jesus Christ, we haven’t listened to BBC, what has happened? And I precede to duck under the window for fear that there has been a turn about. So then crawling around on the floor I think maybe I should take a picture of this just in case, it is interesting! And a friend says, are you mad? You know your not allowed to take pictures of those things, and so that’s the last thing we want to do, attract attention. Here are two Americans, and now the Russians are in front of our house, so all I remember Is that we kept crawling around the floor we turned on the radio and very quietly listened to BBC only to hear nonsense, new music, whatever… but no certain crisis, and I remember the Russians suddenly just drove off, and I just remember thinking, well that was sort of weird, it turns out what they were doing in front of the house had nothing to do with us being Americans, but more for the fact that they were trading Russian Vodka for cigarettes. But I only found that out by getting to know the people in the village. Who told us there was a regular smuggling campaign in the last days of the Russian presence. So that was one memory I have with that. Another one was that the word spread in the Village that two “Ammies” bought the house and they thought, I don’t know what they thought we’d look like, But when we were standing out there working on the lawn that hadn’t been worked on since probably 1945, trying to fix the dump up. So somebody, I remember one person saying to the other, “Da sind sie doch, da sind sie doch, da sind die Ammies” and I cracked up laughing, as if someone said look there is two monkeys ever there.
    Tilman: I would like to ask you one last question, is there anything that you would like to share with me that you think we should know about?
    Dr. Peterson: Well , (thinking) I would find it very important that when all is set and done, all the problems and all the discussion, concerning the difficulties in the German economy, in the German school system, that it might be nice to step back a moment and reflect on the period prior to that fall of the wall, and to think that, the issues we are now confronting, be it educational, or some of the political areas that I have raised. We have gained much more than we have lost, and one would never want it to go backwards. I think that euphoria that characterized that period, should be that which we dell upon not necessarily the inconveniences that there are, I believe it will be in the final analysis short term to characterize the future. Thank you.
    Tilman: Thank you very much.

17. Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    My name is Bettina Brandt-Prietzel. I was born on the 30 of March in 1961. This was the year when they built the wall. It was actually closed on August 13. By this time, I was just 5 month old. All my childhood I lived in Zehlendorf, which was part of West Berlin, actually it belonged to the American Sector. I went to school in Zehlendorf and Dahlem. Later I studied at the Freie Universität in Dahlem. I moved to Charlottenburg when I was around 20. In 1990 I married Adrian. He was also born in 1961 and was raised in Grunewald and Spandau. We had our first child in 1991 and the second in 1994. In 1995 we built a house in a little village just outside of Berlin, called Groß Glienicke, which is located at the Groß Glienicke Lake, wet of Berlin. This part belonged to the GDR. Later we moved to the US to live for two years in Florida. In 2002 we came back to our little village close to Berlin. We still live here today and like it very much.
    On what side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living
    I lived all the time in West Berlin. Since I was born in the year, they built the wall, I never knew Berlin any different than with the wall, only I heard stories of my relatives. Since I had no relatives in the GDR, all my family lived in West Berlin or in the Bundesrepublik, there was not much affection on my life. Except when we were travelling through the GDR on the Transitstrecke by car. For me as a child this was pretty scary.
    Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
    I experience this only a very few times. I think people preferred to fly if they could afford it. This was much more convenient. As a child the border seemed to be very odd and dangerous to me. Usually we had to face a long waiting period to pass. The soldiers at the border where not very friendly and we were really dependent on them. Some of them where even mean. The road conditions were very bad. We had to drive very carefully and slow. If the Volkspolizei would catch you speeding, you would pay every amount they would ask for, even if you were not speeding at all. Driving through the GDR always gave me a feeling of discomfort. It was so dark, and in some areas it was really smelly, where they had their big chemistry factories.
    How, if at all, did you resent the US military presence in Berlin
    Since I was raised in Zehlendorf, I lived in the American sector. Very near by, I remember the big tanks driving up the streets with the soldiers waving to the kids. The American soldiers had a very positive reputation in my family. They were known for being friendly, helpful and considerate. My parents used to say, that they are very considerate drivers and especially friendly with kids.
    How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9. 1989? Who were you with?
    In that night, my husband and I came back from work very late. We were so tired that we went to bed pretty early. We slept the night through without recognizing anything what was going on. Only the next morning when we heard the news, it was almost like a shock. I had an interview that morning at the newspaper “Der Tagesspiegel”. Their office was located close to Potsdamer Platz. It was almost impossible for me to get there on time by using public transportation. There were people everywhere. When I got there, every employer in the building seemed to be running around without any system. Everybody was confused and excited. Somebody apologized to me, that they where not able to make the interview that day, due to the recent events.
    What was your first emotion you felt when you found out that Germany had been reunited?
    I was thankful but also scared. I was thankful because I wanted Germany to be one country again. I heard so many stories of places if have never seen. Places my parents had spend there childhood. People told me that the country around Berlin is very beautiful. But I was also scared because I did not know how things were going to develop and if everything would turn out to be peaceful.
    How were the living conditions on the other side? Were you surprised by the conditions in any ways?
    In January 1990 I started a job at British Airways. It was my duty t find out about the conditions on the Travel market in East Berlin and the former GDR. I was facing difficulties my Managers in London could not imagine. It was impossible to make phone calls from west to East Berlin. It was like an adventure to drive my car into East Berlin. The streets where a disaster, I couldn’t find a map of the city. There was no phone book for companies. Nobody knew who was responsible for what. Everything would change within a couple of days. The people I met there had no clue about our travel market, international Airline business, the concept of Travel Agencies, IATA Airlines and so on. If I would try to explain them, I felt like I was speaking a different language. They were all excited about the travel business, they would invite me for breakfast at 9:30 am and would serve me caviar and Vodka and where confused when I would not drink. It took many months, maybe even years, to make them familiar with our travel business.
    Did you worry about your future (or that of your family) as a result of the fall of the wall? If so, how? Did you have children at the time of the fall, and how were they affected?
    There was a time when I was worried, especially in the very beginning of the process of unification. Everyone knew that this would take a long time and will cost a lot of money, but nobody could clearly see how much. The first month after the falling of the wall, life in Berlin was truly chaotic. It was almost impossible to use the public transportation system. For me it seemed, the whole population of the GDR would visit the city in the first weeks. From all those cars the air in the city was really badly polluted. Many grocery stores, especially places like Aldi, where always crowded and most of the time simply sold out. But I was still positive that this reunification would work out just fine for my country, if only countries like the USSR would let us develop it our way. I had my first child in summer 91, so in the beginning there was not much affection on him. The only main affection I saw and experienced in this time, that for the first time in my life I really experienced history. I felt like I was part of something big going on. And for my son the existence of the GDR and all the circumstances of living in a divided city, all that was past for him. This was a great experience. Later, when he was 4 years old and we moved into our house, just outside of Berlin, we send him to a preschool in the village. There I recognized very soon that the behaviour in that place was still like in the GDR. They had a Lady who cooked for the Kids. Before she worked for the preschool, she used to cook for Russian soldiers. My son started to have problems with his stomach. It took me a while to find out that he was having all kinds o cabbage almost every day for lunch in the preschool. One day he told me that one of his teachers told him to hit one of his mates. I talked to the Lady and she explained me that the other boy has been mistreating my son. So he was supposed to hit him to get stronger for this experience in the future. I was furious. I told her that since 4 years I teach him that hitting each other is no way of communication between civilized humans. I’m honestly not sure if she understood what I explained to her. After only a couple of weeks he left that place. The next problem was the elementary school. By the time our first son was ready for school, the school building in our village was a former pig barn. My husband and I agreed, that there is no way that he’ll visit that school. When we moved into the village in the former GDR, it was Christmas 1995; many of our friends were shocked. Some of them predicted that we, as “Wessis”, what means being from the West, would have a lot of trouble with our neighbours and several of our good old friends would never come to visit us. None of that ever happened. Until today I can say, that I cannot imagine a nicer neighbourhood than ours. But I know, we were lucky. From what we heard, in some areas, there was a lot of trouble.
    In 1989, did you feel that Germany immediately unified or could you tell that it would take some time for Germany to become one whole?
    I think everyone in Berlin was aware of the immense differences we had, between east and west. And I’m sure anyone who had the smallest idea of the different live styles; opinions etc. knew that Germany could not grow together within a short amount of time. But I talked to people from south Germany or from areas, far away from the border; they had really no idea of what was going on. Of course for me as a Berliner things were quite different. We could see the differences and problems every day.
    What significant changes did you notice after the wall fell? How has the fall of the wall affected your daily life?
    If you could’ve done something different on 9 November what would you change or would you change anything? Please give examples.
    Today I can say, that the fall of the wall has affected my life in many ways. There are quite a few people; I call friends who are from the east. Without the fall of the wall we probably would have never met. Have you visited the countryside around Berlin? How beautiful it is in Potsdam, In Brandenburg or have you been to the coast or to the Müritz? Only after the fall of the wall I started slowly to find out how beautiful the country surrounding the city of Berlin is. It took me years to find out about places my parents and my grandparents have talked about. And only today, after many years of travelling through the former GDR I understand how much we missed all the years with the wall.
    To what extent to easterners and westerners feel united as ONE Germany?
    This of course depends a lot of the kind of people you talk to. In general I believe, that the younger the people are, the more flexible they react on changes. And I believe that the changes where bigger for the easterners. But there were huge number of them, who desperately wanted those changes. For the people from the west it took a while to understand that the process of unification would cost them something too. The more distance there was, between some of the western countries, and the former GDR, the less the westerners would except and understand those costs. I think the real losers were the easterners over 50, especially those, who really believed in there system.
    Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down? Describe some of the successes and failures of integration.
    I truly believe that the west did not integrate at all. Al the west did, was paying money, to make the east similar to the west. This was very expensive of course, but it did not change the west. The east was the part what had to change. It did change a lot, but it still takes some more time, to complete the process. Coming generations will fulfil this development for us. Our system proved this time as the better system. That is the reason why, the people of the former GDR had to move towards us. And I believe this was the right move, this time. There might be other times in the future, but this time the development was good the way it was done.
    Would you describe Germany as a “unified” city today? Why or why not?
    I think we are getting close. Of course this is a process, which takes time. As I said, the next generation will maybe end it. And of course, if you talk to single people, you can always find some who disagree. But seeing the whole population, I think that we are close of being a unified country. If people start arguing with all those differences between the regions, they have always been. The east was always different, let’s say poorer than the west, as was the north and the south. This is a problem you can find in almost every country of the world.
    In conclusion, what should young people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the fall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
    I would not talk too much about the politics. I would much more talk about the pain the all the trouble, this partition caused. And I would tell about this great success for unification of a country in such a peaceful and quiet process. There are many examples, how things were done different in history. This is what made the unification between East and West Germany so unique.

18. Steven Smith’s Interview with Prof. Dr. Ralph-Hardo Schulz
    Date: 29/11/07
    S: Steven
    R: Dr. Prof. Ralph Schulz
    ( ….. ) : meant to clarify
    S: Hello, I am interviewing Dr. Professor Ralphf Schulz from the Fu-Berlin. I am interviewing him on the day November 9, 1989 and on German Unification.
    Would you take a few moments to introduce yourself?
    R: Yes, my name is Ralph-Hardo Schulz, im living in Berlin since 1974, and I’m professor for mathematics at the free university of Berlin.
    S: Okay, um going back in time a couple of years, um… How did you find out about the fall of the wall?
    R: Um, on the night of November 9th,I was at home after work, alone, watching television, but I stoped doing so, before the fall of the wall was reported.
    R: So I went to sleep, since I live a bit away from mid(dle) of town, em, I was not awake like other people in the city.
    S: How did you feel when the wall fell?
    R: um, yea although an east german colleague who had invited me to a talk in Rostock, an east german town. Eh, it was in the rules and regulations ( that he could pass ).
    Ehh, although he had predicted the wall will be possible to pass, eh um, aswell by normal east germans.
    I got the fabulous news the next day, I was overwhelmed about the complete fall of the wall.
    S: yea… So did you see anyone on the other side, that day?
    R: Em, No, on that day I was not there, at the fall of the wall,um, but I went the next day, and saw a lot of people, but nobody relative, or I knew before, em yes, afterwards of course I saw a lot of people there.
    S: Um, What were your feelings when you were on the other side? Were you scared of the people or did you feel that you have been reunited?
    R: O em, as I said, I was invited to Rostock, and was there for one week., before the wall fall, and I often visited the eastern part of Berlin, so em, it was not so strange for me, and especially at that time there was such good mood all over Berlin. So um, people who hadn’t seen eachother before, talked to eachother and were very happy.
    S: Okay, um, How were the living condtions on the other side, were they different from the other side?
    R: Oh!, yes, they were. Very different.
    You know that there was no democrasy in the east german part. Um, no liberty of speech, no liberty of traveling, um, even many people were not allowed to choose their profession, they were told what they had to learn.
    R: Em, and so um , this was of course difficult for them, not so much for us. Um, to pass the border ( btw east and west Berlin ), em you were searched and ah asked about many things, quite often.
    S: Um, … for example?
    R: Um, for example. How much money you have with you, what you want to do in the east german part.
    And um, so em, and of course there was a, was a big lack of some food. Yea… They ( east germans ) didn’t have to strave or so, but for instants, oranges, or bananas, or um spices or so, were not available, em to most of the people there.
    S: So, you were happy living on the west side ( of Berlin )?
    R: I was happy living on the west side, yes.
    S: Did um, a lot of people move over, from east to west after the wall fell?
    R: Um, yes, I think so, yea. Oh em, even before the wall fell, you know em, they ( east germans ) tried to go over, escaped over other countries like Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and so on.
    S: That was risky though?
    R: That was, was not as risky as to cross the wall, many people died ( trying ).
    S: Okay, what were challenges that you faced when the wall fell? So um, did it effect your life in any way?
    R: Yes, it did effect my life of course, um, at first there were many possibilities to do excurtions the surrounding ( east Berlin ), and to visit places like Potsdam, where I have never been before.
    Um, before you either were in the town or you had to travel a lot to see other places.
    And then of course the connection to the colleagues ( in east Berlin ) was now much easier. Um, before the fall of the wall they ( his colleagues ) couldn’t come to visit us, but sometimes we were able to visit them, but not at there place. But, perhaps an undery ( some place in public or hidden ) or so.
    S: Was that not allowed?
    R: Um, it was not possible to just visit them in the university, for example Humboldt University. There were some men at the entrance, and they wanted to know, what you would like to hear ( from his colleagues ). And, they said no, “you can’t see him, you will need allowance.”
    S: Wow, so after the wall fell did you still live in west Berlin? Or did you…
    R: Yes, I continued living here.
    S: Okay, what personally did the wall “falling” mean to you?
    R: Oh, it meant that now the spirit of freedom and democrasy, now had won, over the communism. Especially in the 70’s there were many students, that sympathized with the east german part, and ideology. … And, the whole town now changed, yea, and west berlin is not that what it used to be before. The feeling of being on an island, is now not anymore there, you feel like you’re ( berlin as one ) the capital of Germany.
    S: …
    S: Did the falling of the wall effect your future plans? If it wouldn’t of fell would you still be working at the FU-Berlin?
    R: Um, No it didn’t effect that, the only think which it effected was that the fall of the wall is in someway connected to the shortening of the money for the west berlin universities. Because, now there is one university more, so the FU-berlin lost a lot of its funding, by that. We ( the FU-Berlin ) still suffer from that.
    S: Was the FU-Berlin already here before the fall of the wall?
    R: Yes, the FU-Berlin was founded in the late 40’s, it was founded because of the supression of meetings and speech at the Humboldt University, but at that time there was not yet the wall.
    Pause….
    S: If you could have been at the site where the wall fell, on that night, would you have went?
    R: Oh Yes, I would have gone, as I did the next day to the brandenburger gate. And, we were standing on the wall. I don’t know if you ever remember seeing those pictures of people standing on the wall.
    S: Um, do you think the wall fell at the right time? Or do you think it could of fell earlier or later?
    R: Oh haha, what we would of wanted is that it would of fallen earlier. But, it would have been much more dangerous, if the soviet union wouldn’t have moved out of berlin.
    S: Right right, um. What do you think the advantages and disadvantages were of the division of Berlin/Germany?
    R: Oh, of the division of Germany…I told you already of the suppression of human rights in eastern part. So, that was of course the great disadvantage. Um, an advantage had the east german government, but if there haven’t of been a wall then people would have moved out of there region.
    But, it was good that no blood had to be shed ( through the division ).
    S: So you are saying, it was all peaceful?
    R: Yes, it was peaceful, you know that in the early 50’s, there was a revolution, where many people were shot. ( He’s comparing the revolution to the unification). So they wanted unification at that time ( early 50’s ), even before there was a wall.
    S: Um, to what extent did easteners and westeners, well, did you feel that Germany was united one, people wise, after the wall fell? Do you think the people of both sides were united as one right away?
    R: There were still east germans and west germans, even my colleagues, I told you of, my east german colleagues who could now visit me. They said, we don’t know how west Germany works, we had to explain to them how to get money off a bank, with a credit or bank card. They didn’t know. They were raised in a way that, for example, when you were in a restaurant and went to the toilet, they ( east germans ) stood there, and didn’t get water out of the sink, because they didn’t know how to operate it. You were supposed to put your hands in the sink and wait for the water to come out automatically, they tried to open the faucit.
    S: So, the west germans were more developed, both technology wise and economically?
    R: They were much more economically developed!
    S: Um, 18 years later, what significance did you notice in Germany’s unification? Like today?
    R: I see that the wall was spliting one nation, into two parts. Where the eastern part was a state suprressing freedom, although those living there were not really unemployed or anything. Although many tried to escape, risking there lives.
    Pause…
    S: Today, can you still see segregation between east and west?
    R: There is, only very few people who were strong communists perhaps.
    They were just astonished that the wall had broken down so fast and so completely.
    S: But, they have to expect that it would eventually happen?
    R: No, most of them thought that the DDR, would change and allow them some kind of freedom.
    S: Would you describe Germany as a unified country today?
    R: More or less, but there are still differences between east and west. You will always notice this, the trade union is organized a different way, the state employee’s are a lot less than in the western part, and so on.
    It’s united, but in some aspects it will take time until it is completely united.
    S: What are the challenges that Germany will need to undergo until they are completely united? So, what does Germany have to do to be “ one “ ?
    R: Oh, they are on the right way ( track ), but means of course ( uniting ) financially. It’s more expensive to completely unite. For intance, to give the same salary to the easterners and the westeners. But, this will come in time.
    S: Yea, so that about answers my questions. Just, I want to know from your perspective, do you think people, young people should know about the history of german unification?
    R: Yes, yes of course! It is always nessecary that young people that know about the history, and learn from it, to avoid mistakes which were made. Um, as well to see how mismanagement can ruin a complete country. And, that mismanagement can lead to the lack of freedom.
    Yes, of course, one should know of there own history.
    S: Well then, thank you very much for doing this, answering my questions.
    R: It was my pleasure, thank you also.

19. Julia Scherdel
    25.11.07
    10E
    Lazar
    Interview with Oliver Hahn
    JS: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    OH: My name is Oliver Hahn. I am 44 years, married and have a 16 year old daughter. I was born in the south western part of Germany near Karlsruhe. When I was 3 years old my parents moved to Berlin. I live in the City since then.
    JS: On what side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living?
    OH: I lived in West Berlin. Since West Berlin was a real big city (nearly 500 km²) in day-to-day life we were not really affected by the wall. In fact we did not even see the wall for weeks. Most of the time we just visited the wall when there were tourists we took for a sightseeing tour. Looking back the only annoying situation was when travelling by car. Especially during holidays it sometimes took hours to cross the border. But since I grew up like this it felt more or less normal.
    JS: Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    OH: Back then the division of Berlin was just a fact. It was never a question of being reasonable or not. At school for example we certainly discussed the reasons for the GDR government to build wall. But in the end it didn’t make any difference what so ever.
    JS: Did you have any family members or friends living on the other side? How did the division come between your friendships or your relations to family members?
    OH: I did not have any family members leaving in eastern Germany myself. My wife had some relatives over there. So in 1988 I went to east Berlin for the first time to visit family members. Except for all the hassle involved in crossing the border it was just like visiting family in western Germany.
    9 November 1989
    JS: How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9. 1989? Who were you with?
    OH: 9 November with my wife I spent a quite evening at home without any TV or radio. So we found about what happened the next morning when the clock radio turned on. Of course we couldn’t really believe it. When I later went to the office I had to take the bus along the Ku-Damm. There I saw dozens if not hundreds of trabbis and thousands of people waiting in front of the Banks to get their “Begrüßungsgeld”. This was 100 DM each east German person visiting Berlin could get once a year. The atmosphere was very friendly and exciting that day. People were partying in the streets. Most if not all of the West-Berliners were trying to help and assist their new neighbours in every way they could. Still my emotions were mixed because I was not sure where all this could possibly lead to. Before 9 November we were living in a rather comfortable situation that was sort of clear and we at least knew how to deal with. With a government imploding right next to you things to come are more or less uncertain.
    OH: 10 November in the evening lots of my wife’s relatives met at my in-laws house. Most of them I met for the first time.
    JS: Were you scared of any prejudices the other side could have had? What did you feel when you first passed through the wall?
    OH: I did not care about any potential prejudices whatsoever. As always I tried to see more the opportunities than the challenges. So together with some friends we were starting a business in the computer industry that pretty good for a couple of years. In fact I never really experienced any prejudices at all.
    JS: After the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in and why?
    OH: Since I lived in the south western parts of Berlin most of the time I did not feel like changing this. Still I sometimes enjoy spending some time for leisure in Prenzlauer Berg or Friedrichshain.
    JS: What did it mean to you personally when the wall fall? Can you give a few examples of how your personal life changed?
    OH: Till the wall finally fell it was more or less normal since I grew up like this. The most significant change is that I started working with people from the former east Berlin. Some of them became very close friends over the years.
    JS: What do you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
    OH: All in all there are definitely no advantages dividing people by any walls. It may make sense for some obscure political reasons but never for the people affected this type of decisions. This always leads to an unacceptable lack of freedom. That’s why I think we do not need walls anywhere in the world. May it be here, Korea, Middle East – you name it.
    Challenges of Unification
    JS: Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down?
    OH: I do not think that the unification process is finished yet. It was relatively easy in Berlin where there majority of citizens quickly started to recognize they are part of the same community. But in other areas where there is not that much exchange between the inhabitants it seems like it will take some more time. These are areas in the eastern Bundesländer where there still is much unemployment and lots of people moving out but literally no one moving in from the west.
    JS: Is the German government doing enough to ensure equal opportunities for ALL Berliners?
    OH: In my opinion the German government made lots of mistakes in the early 90’s. Lots if not all of the major east German industry was carried out (abgewickelt?). But there were no working plans to get enough new jobs in a reasonable timeframe. This led to a terrible unemployment in some regions of the former GDR, for example Sachsen-Anhalt and northern and eastern parts of Brandenburg. Still I am not sure if I really can consider this a government’s fault as the whole unification process was a first-time experiment back then.
    Today
    JS: 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited? In what ways is Berlin a better place? In what ways is it perhaps a less desirable city?
    OH: Berlin lost its former frontier city style of living. Instead today it’s a city quite comparable to other larger cities like London or New York City. So that’s the most significant change or improvement. The cultural living used to be very rich before the wall fell and it became even richer after. Today companies decide to move to or invest in Berlin because they really expect a ROI and not just for the political statement.
    JS: Can you still see segregation between East and West today? Please give examples.
    Looking at Berlin today I do not see any segregation between east and west Berlin at all. Of course to some extent there is segregation between parts of the city just like in any other bigger city in the world. So I see Berlin as a completely unified city.
    JS: What is the primary challenge that needs to be met in order to unite Germany today?
    OH: Berlin’s major challenges today are financial challenges. These are clearly a result of the segregation as Berlin and the surrounding Brandenburg are separate Bundesländer. This means they are financially independent. Lots of people working in Berlin decided to move out and live in Brandenburg. So they earn their money in Berlin and pay their taxes in Brandenburg. Still Berlin has to spend the money that’s necessary to maintain all the infrastructure.
    JS: Thank you!

20. Interview with Susanne Volkmer:
    JS: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you
    were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    SV: I was raised in Berlin, in the west part, I was born after the wall came up, so I grew up with the wall. I lived all my life in West Berlin with three siblings and my parents. We had no relatives in the east part of Germany.
    JS: Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    SV: As… (laughing) …as a child you just grow up with the reality that the city was divided, and you wondered why other cities weren’t divided because for you it was normal. Naturally when one was older one started to realize that it was politically incorrect but it was just the way Berlin was, that it was just part of you life.
    JS: How were children affected by the division of Berlin?
    SV: Children of the west weren’t really affected except for us it was a reality if we ever wanted to leave the city with the car that it was long hours standing and waiting at the border and being checked inside and out. Then you had the realisation of travelling through the east seeing suddenly seeing all the Trabbis and even as a small child you realized that every other car was better than the Trabbi and there was, you know as a child’s view you always knew it took three and a half hours to leave Berlin and then you were at the west side of the country again.
    JS: How did the fall of the wall affect you personally? How long it did take your life to feel “normal” after the fall of the wall?
    SV: My life always felt normal, as I mentioned you grew up with the wall I was on the by chance of the birth on the better side of the wall, so normality didn’t change and I still live with even after 18 years after the wall came down lived with the fact that I still divide the country in east and west in my thoughts from time to time when I work with people from the east certain mentality points and when I go to other cities so its not totally normal yet.
    JS: In 1989, did you feel that Germany immediately unified or could you tell that it would take some time for Germany to become one whole?
    SV: Everyone in their right mind knew that it was 40 years of the wall and that it would take at least another 40 years that one or two generations for normality to begin. And the term normality is very subjective. What’s normal? And for us living in, having east and west was normal and it changed and its normal, but having two different kind of Germans was normal and it takes generations to fill the gap.
    JS: Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down? Describe some of the successes and failures of integration.
    SV: Well nobody was prepared for the integration so naturally a lot of mistakes were made and that for the fact for what we have done it has been very successful but as I mentioned mentality wise and naturally economically wise it will take generations to become one unit.
    JS: What were your own unique experiences after the wall came down?
    SV: After the wall came down there were less unique experiences my dear Julia than before but after I worked the day after the wall came down, it was on a week end and I’m a pharmacist and we had the most customers we’ve ever had of all the east Germans peoples leaving the east without thinking without taking their life saving medications, so I’ve never had so many people in desperate need as on the 10th of November.
    JS: And before? (Both laughing)
    SV: And before (sighs) ok well when I was small the funniest thing that would happen: The school was when the American tanks would go by and we would all stand up, it was forbidden to stand up in class at that time, and wave peace signs out of the window and they would sit on their tanks and wave back to us and it was always fun to mess up class that way.
    So know the “Soldier in the Wasser story”
    Ok the soldier in the Wasser story, it was, le me think, 1988 a year before the wall came down. I came home from, late, from a party with friends we were in a car and were we always had to drop her of in Wannsee because there were no busses running and to make a long story short on Königsallee there where to hitch hikers and being young we slowed down and thought who’s this and the first thought I had was I said ‘look, those are two Russians’ and we stopped and there where to east German border guards who had jumped into the water after a shooting exercise were they had graded hundred percent and they got extra leave and they had jumped into the water, had put their cigarettes in their hats, not to get them wet, and had swam through the canal and I think it was late November, it was extremely cold. And we stopped and we asked who they were and where they came from and they said ‘Alles was wir möchten ist, wir möchten einfach mal im Westen in die Kneipe gehen und dann fahren wir wieder nach Hause. (Translation: All we want is, we want to go into a bar in the west and then we go back home again.)
    SV: Want to know more?
    JS: YES!!
    SV: Growing up in Berlin we knew that you shouldn’t really take east German border guards to the “Kneipe” but we didn’t, but young we didn’t know what else to do so we took them to the nearest still open bar and we called the police and they sent police in civilian clothes and naturally the American allies came and it was the American territory but also the British came and the French military police came and for days they were interviewed, naturally they had no right or no way of ever going back to the east and we were interviewed because at first they maybe thought that we have been helpers, but we weren’t. it was just a strange way a strange meeting in the middle of the night. And these poor young men were obviously extremely drunk when they jumped into the water because they left wife and children, which both of the wives got a divorce in the next twenty four hours and sometimes I wonder what happened to them they got new jobs, but if never know if thy were ever happy.
    JS: How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9th 1989? Who were you with?
    SV: The ninth of November naturally was a very politically time and for weeks and month we had been watching television, watching the “montags-Demonstrationen” watching the people flee over Hungary watching the whole DDR disassemble before our eyes but nobody knew when or what was going to happen and having a very political orientated boyfriend who watched every news on the ninth of November we were I Berlin, and he watched the late news and we watched Schakowsky stumble and misinterpreted the things he was supposed to say so he said get dressed, it was cold, and we got dressed and then we went to Wedding to the border, just like fifteen minutes before the border gates opened.
    JS: Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down.
    SV: It was extremely peaceful before it came all we saw was masses of people. We were one of the first ones there we were directly in front of the fence I was even on top of the fence watching and you could see the other masses of people on the other side but everything was very peaceful, a bit pushy, but much less pushy that at a big rock concert or something similar and suddenly the “Grenzbeamten” came and they opened the big gate and the people just started rushing through, first just people by foot and suddenly Trabbis overfilled with people. People sitting on top of them hanging out, everybody was drinking “Rotkäppchen Sekt” or something similar and screaming and clapping and yelling so it was very happy atmosphere for the fact that it was really really chaotic.
    JS: What was your first emotion you felt when you found out that Germany had been reunited?
    SV: On the ninth of November all you noticed as a Berliner, all we noticed as young people is the wall came down. It wasn’t really reality that Germany would be reunited at the moment we just knew that the east Germans were aloud to travel and that we were aloud to mix but it wasn’t really a fact yet that we would have one government and one demark and be united. We thought we would be but it was just that the happy feelings at last that they are at last able to get out, and to go back and forth.
    JS: 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited?
    SV: Well even I have troubles remembering where the wall was. There’s streets I know, oh that’s where I used to look over the wall that everything is you know is united. Berlin has just changed to a tremendous beautiful life in this city much nicer than it used to be.
    JS: Do you still recognize the difference between east and west a lot?
    SV: Yes, but that doesn’t mean that’s something negative. It’s just like you recognize people coming from Bavaria or you know that people come from Saxony or somewhere else. But there is also a certain mentality in the older generation that as I say I think it just needs 40 years of brainwashing will not, cannot, vanish in 18 years, it will take another 22 years to vanish, and brainwashing is a hard thing to deal with.
    JS: Would you describe Germany as a “unified” city today? Why or why not?
    SV: Oh yes! Yes were absolutely unified, but as I said as people from Hamburg are different from people in Munich, people from Dresden are different than people from Berlin. That’s what a democracy has to deal with but yes, were a unified country and its responsibility of our children as Julia here never to forget what happened and to always work that things like this cannot happen again and it’s a very good project that their trying to interview people that still remember. Like our generation interviews people from Second World War before everybody forgets what happened.
    JS: Do you have prejudices against East Berliners?
    SV: I really try not to but sometimes some of them make it very hard for me in daily life, as I said I work in a pharmacy, and I work in the former east and the older generation makes it very hard for me not to be prejudiced. But it’s also my responsibility not to deal with that.
    JS: Can you give an example?
    SV: We still have people come in on daily basis saying that it used to be much better and their medical treatment used to be much better in the DDR an even though I know better I try to be very diplomatic and I try to forgive them because we know they were brainwashed and it was just by luck that some people were born on one side and some were on the other side and I feel myself the lucky one being able to grow up in west Berlin.
    JS: What are the primary challenges facing Berlin today? How much are these challenges a result of the partition?
    SV: Primary challenges of Berlin today is the high amount of people without jobs and also a high standard of people without good schooling and a mental on look on their life where we have to spend a lot of money and time to change this and a lot of them are still waiting that “Vaterstaat” does something for them but they have to be taught that they have to start first and not everything will be handled for them. That’s something left over from the DDR.
    JS: What is the primary challenge that needs to be met in order to unite Germany today?
    SV: We have to keep on working, we have to work against prejudice and we have to school, school, school, the newest generations and we have to put the emphasis on having a high standard in education.
    JS: Are there any other examples of special excperiances you want to share with me?
    SV: Special experiences: growing up in the west, in the American side of Berlin, we grew up with the military I went to the John F. Kennedy School, so we had a lot of military friends. We grew up with the American culture, with thanksgiving and Santa clause with having friend who got the big turkeys from the comeseries simple things like that, but we grew up very connected to the United States very grateful to them always never feeling that they were occupying us always feeling that they were friends. As a teenager I spent hours dancing in the officers clubs and buying cheep drinks probably subsidized by the American government. So it made us connected to he U.S.A. which other parts of Germany would never have been and the same is for the people living in the French sector and in the British sector. They were connected to different countries. Not only German but also to the countries that helped keep the country safe.
    JS: Do you think your relationship to the U.S.A. would have been as intense if you wouldn’t have gone to the John F. Kennedy School?
    SV: No! (laughing)
    JS: Why?
    SV: Because this is where I met life long friends and I was introduced to American literature, to American history, American traditions. It was just the other half of my life. Like, a bit like being schizophrenic.
    JS: In conclusion, what should young people today who were not alive at the time of partition know about the wall and its fall? What messages are most important to understand?
    SV: That the fall came, it was a peaceful fall, by, through the peaceful pressure of people who never gave up that they had a right to freedom not only freedom to travel but freedom of thoughts and that it was just a time factor, that something like the SED could not, could not just exist. That you don’t need a war to end something like that you just need a, the will, the political will to change things, and that you can change them peacefully.
    JS: Thank you!

21. Interview
    AG- Andrea Gebele
    MB- Maro Balke
    PB- Petra Bluemmel
    AG: Could you please introduce yourself.
    MB: Well, my name is Maro Balke and I am the owner of this Shop.
    PB: I am Petra Buemmel, his wife.
    AG: How did you find out that the Berlin Wall fell?
    PB: We did not find it our on the ninth but the day after that.
    MB: In the evening, I wanted to go get gas but I was not served because the service-station attendant was talking on the phone. I of course asked myself: “What’s going on?”, but he wouldn’t tell me, or maybe he couldn’t because he was so excited. Anyways he just went right back to the phone after I paid. I just thought: “What a weirdo!”, and drove home. Nevertheless, that’s how I missed it. Only in the morning did we notice that something was going on because everyone was on the streets. After we found out what had happened we immediately made our way to the now fallen wall.
    AG: On which side of the Wall did you live at that time?
    MB: We lived on the West Side of Berlin.
    AG: Did you have kids who were affected because of the wall?
    MB: Neither did we nor do we have children today.
    AG: But you were already married correct?
    MB: No we weren’t married yet. We had been together for two years at that time, we only got married a long time after that.
    AG: Did you loose anyone when the wall was built, like family or friends?
    PB: Yes, I lost family, the family of my mother. But we visited them sometimes, either through East-Berlin or around it.
    MB: Yes, I and my family visited our lost family about once a year. We visited our Granduncles and Grandaunts. I was ten years old, but I didn’t really care that much. The only thing that was important was that we could play, because since we were City people we didn’t have that much time to play, so we were always excited to go to the country side and to the forests. Something like that was something that Berlin didn’t know.
    AG: On which side would you rather have lived?
    MB: I don’t even have to think about that, on the West side of course! I was on the East side a couple of times and that was always very exotic. The same language but a different country. You still notice today that there was a different country back then, and there still is. I liked it there but I couldn’t picture myself living there. Everything was gray.
    AG: Does that mean that you saw the East as a different country?
    MB: Of course! I saw the East as a different world, just that it had the same language. I thought that was the way the English felt when they were in America or in India, the English speaking countries. At the tine the Wall fell we lived right in front of the border, so we could walk two and a half meters and then we were in a totally different world. Different money, different shopping conditions, and so on.
    AG: How was the Atmosphere when the wall fell? Nervous, Excited?
    MB: Everyone was very dissolved, euphoric, over euphoric I’d say. I guess you could have seen the situation a bit more realistic about the future, but our thoughts of the future where overshadowed by our joy.
    AG: How did you personally feel? Were you Happy?
    MB: Of course! We went to the wall, and helped break it! We still have a stone at home! First we went over to the East side, the capitol of the DDR and had a great party with Fireworks, 100 transmission balances for the television, the International Press, everyone was there to party. But there were about 5 Figures looking at the Brandenburg Gate, and onto the other side, but there was nothing. No party, no joy, nothing. Mostly there were soldiers but they weren’t allowed to come to the other side to party. But we were all euphoric and partied for three days. After two to three weeks we had enough of parties and started thinking about the options that we now had.
    AG: Did you start thinking about the Future?
    MB: Yes, especially of our own future. We heard that you could get cheap land in the East and tried to Contact some people to buy some. That didn’t work though.
    AG: After the wall fell in which part of Berlin did you want to live?
    PB: We wanted to live outside of Berlin!
    AG: Outside of Berlin? Not even in the city?
    MB: No, but not only because we wanted to live there but also because everything in the city was far too expensive for us.
    AG: I see. So what happened or what did you do on the day you found out the wall fell?
    MB: We immediately went to the wall and got all our friends together. We had arranged to meet there, and then like I said we partied for 3 days. We slept in between though.
    AG: Was it better to have made the wall fall or worse for Berlin?
    MB: better of course. Everyone knew the wall had to go! The wall was bad, it was sick. The wall could have been removed 10 years earlier. If you looked at the border and the border posts the only thing you would think was: “That has to go!” Even though I was born in the West in the year 1961 I never really noticed the wall. The wall is in head. That shouldn’t be that way. Also because the wall should and had to go. The DDR can be proud about what they carried out.
    AG: Do you have a Memory that you like to remember?
    MB: With the wall? Yes, when the wall fell we had a shop, just like we have now, which was positioned right in front of the third border post through which many people came. First many people went to the Post to get their 100DM Greeting Money. The Post was stationed right next to the third border post in other words right opposite of our shop. So when we saw the people swarming in we built a wall of banana boxes and presented our goods to those people. And all of them came to our shop and wanted to buy something. That was great! Despite the yearly visits I was shaken by the thought of how affected these people were, because some actually broke into tears after reaching the other side. I wasn’t used to it, that a 40-50 year old man broke into tears at the sight of our printed plastic bags. Maybe it wasn’t just the sight of the plastic bags but also the fact that he escaped out of the great gray part of Berlin. The line of shoppers continued 3-5 days after the third border post had been opened. It was all very exciting.
    AG: On that day would you have done anything different?
    MB: No, I wouldn’t change anything.
    AG: And you?
    PB: No, me neither.
    AG: Why?
    MB: Because we didn’t do anything wrong on that day. I was happy, I would do everything the exact way if it happened again.
    AG: Do you think that The Wall fell on the right day or would you have chosen a different day?
    MB: Yes, much earlier! 20 years earlier! Maybe even 1962. They could have let the wall exist for one year as a bad example but a wall like that shouldn’t belong there. Something like that isn’t right! The earlier it is gone the better.
    AG: Did you notice how the World reacted to the fall of the wall?
    MB: Yes, we used to travel a lot in those days, on many different continents, and even on Madagascar did everyone know that the wall had fallen. Everyone wanted to know what had happened. And when you said that you came from Berlin they would immediately ask you many questions about how it had been at the time. You also had to tell them that the Berlin “Island” wasn’t just 10*10 meters long but much bigger than that! The whole World was talking about how the Berlin Wall fell. Most of the people with whom I talked saw it all very positive but there were some who feared a new Nationalism or a fake pride of the Germans. Also the other people like the Americans or the English were happy and excited about the fall of the Wall. Yet the other Governments weren’t that joyous. Also for many in West Berlin the good years were over. Many had had a good life even with the wall, but after the fall those good comfortable times were over. People were happy in the 80s.An those were over for many. Berlin was a Capital but also a Providence. The Capital was open 24/7. All other cities had Closing hours except for Berlin. Berlin was a city in which subcultures could grow, like punk, because of the “Island” situation. But the good year were over. It wasn’t easy for the Unemployed, and the number grew, which meant that the Offices had a hard time to distribute the Unemployed funds. For many this wasn’t so good.
    AG: How was it to drive over the Border between West and East Berlin?
    MB: When we drove to West- Germany with our car, it was an actual chaos to drive over the border. Even if you were only visiting it took at least one hour to get over onto the other side. You were really scared to.
    AG: Why were you scared?
    MB: We were scared of the questions that the border guards asked, and that they would take your car apart, and if they found something that they didn’t like they would have taken it and would have taken hours to search the car in hope of finding anything else. My little sister was actually interrogated for hours!
    AG: Why?
    MB: Because we had music tapes in the car. You weren’t allowed to take tapes or magazines, you see! The tapes were lying in the car when the guard asked whom they belonged to. My father thinking nothing of it told him that they belonged to my sister. They then asked her to come with them and so she was interrogated about them for hours. While they were interrogating her they were listening to the tapes! That wasn’t a happy moment.
    PB: You were always scared that you did something wrong.
    MB: Exactly! We once wanted to go over the border and were standing there when the guard asked were we wanted to go. We answered him that we wanted to go to Berlin, The Capital of the DDR. That was fine. Yet our Colleague who was coming with us answered the same question with East-Berlin. For saying that we were all allowed to wait an hour. Just because he said East- Berlin we had to wait! You weren’t allowed to say that back then. It wasn’t forbidden but it was reason enough to let us wait at the border. You had to remember such small details.
    AG: Did you notice other people having the same problems?
    MB: My Mother, she did something wrong. Her suitcase was full of Coffee and tights, and the guard wanted to see what was in the suitcase. Now she had a dilemma because she new that if the saw the coffee she would have a big problem. Yet when she had to show him the interiors of the suitcase she put her hand under the Laundry in a way that the coffee wasn’t visible. After a while the guard was satisfied and she could go. They didn’t have to tell her twice. If you’d experienced something like that you would know how scared we were of doing something wrong.
    PB: Yes, also you had to sign yourself up and sign yourself of. Once I singed myself on, but I continued to travel through west- Berlin because I had to get to a wedding. I also signed myself on there, but when I came back I didn’t sign myself of at the place I had signed myself on, so I arrived at the Border Post one day late, which resulted in that I got interrogated.
    AG: What kind of questions did they ask you?
    PB: I don’t remember all the questions but they all circled around the question why I had been late and were I had been. I told them everything about the wedding and told them if they wanted proof they could just call their number. They held me there at least an hour or so. I was 10. In such a situation you get scared.
    MB: When you drove through the Transition you had to keep time. If you didn’t you wouldn’t get into prison but you were interrogated. That’s why it took so long to get over the border.
    AG: Was there a time limit at the Transition?
    MB: You had to be back by 24 hours. But the time wasn’t really the problem. The lines were the problem. If you had a tramper, we like to travel with a tramper, you really had to watch what you were saying unless you wanted to be interrogated. At a Transition you weren’t allowed to get out of the car and just take a walk if you felt like it you had to drive straight through East- Berlin on the highway. The only time you were allowed to get out of the car was at a highway stop or resting place.
    AG: Two more questions: Would you ever like to have the Wall rebuilt?
    MB: No, never.
    PB: Me neither.
    AG: What would you do if it was rebuilt? Would you Protest?
    MB: That would be the least I would do! No the wall is gone and that’s the way it should stay.
    AG: Thank you very, very much for answering all of my question honestly, and thank you for your time.

22. Oral History Project
    Interviewee: Fr. Iden (I)
    Interviewer: Tim Geers (T)
    Divided Berlin
    T: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    I: My name is Sylvia Iden, and I was born in 1961 in the year of the building of the wall. I was raised mostly by my mother because my father had his family in West Berlin, we were living in East Berlin, and he tried to get to West Berlin and he was captured, but he was held in prison for one and a half years before he went to West Berlin. So my mother and I were living together and I made the Abitur, went to university, became a teacher in 1985 and I was working in the East until 1995 working in elementary schools at normal 10 class school, most of them were 10 class schools, and at “Gesamtschule.” After that I came here to the John F. Kennedy School in 1995 and up to now I’m working here.
    T: So you said you lived on the east side of Berlin and how did this affect your way of living, or how did this affect you?
    I: Since my family was exactly divided into two parts, on the east side my mother one of my aunts, one of my uncles, and on the west side my granny my father one of my uncles. There was always a coming and going, when they were allowed to come, no not a going not from our side because we from the east couldn’t go to the west, but the people from the west could come to visit us. So there was always a kind of visits, not very often, but on a kind of regular basis. And it influenced my life because I was raised up at a socialist school and we were forced to be in organizations like the FDJ and if you had the backbone to refuse to go into those organizations you wouldn’t be able to study, you wouldn’t be able to get a good job. So it was very difficult to do things like that, so of course I was in those organizations. Since I was always connected to the west by my father it wasn’t all that difficult for me to see the west side and to see the views or hear the views. For instance when I wanted to go to make Abitur to the next school as we called it the “Erweiterte Oberschule,” it was a kind of Gymnasium, I wasn’t allowed to go because I had a father in the west. So normally in the east you went to this Gymnasium from the 9th class on. So I was rejected to go there and I applied again after the 10th grade and because I was the best student in the whole school they had no choice but to let me go to that Gymnasium. Otherwise I don’t know if they would have let me go.
    T: So please recall your opinions towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division and was this division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    I: The problem was privately my family was the divided and because my father was over there as a small child when he was in prison I didn’t know of it because I was to small to know. And later when I was lets say 8-9 years he didn’t tell me and he just came for a visit and it was nice that he came to us that we met the whole family together. Privately I saw very much of the west, but in school I was raised by teachers who were neglecting the west, who didn’t want to hear anything of it, and who were telling you only socialism is a good society. Imperialism and the West and West Germany are the enemy, the evil ones, we are not allowed to support them. Special historical events were not even brought up in our school, for instance the rise of the workers in 1953 in June was never an issue at school or the fact that Berlin was separated from West Berlin, from the rest of the Federal Republic and was not allowed to get any food or anything and where all those Rosinenbomber all those planes that were coming were not allowed to be talked about in school, you didn’t find them in papers you didn’t find them on tv you didn’t find them anywhere. And you weren’t allowed to ask about it either. Otherwise you would be looked at like a suspect. Whenever you said the truth about such things you were immediately classified as a bad one.
    T: Can you please state why your father was in prison?
    I: Just, that’s a funny fact, because he was thinking about going to the west because of his mother, and he was talking to one of those “Fluchthilfer” the people who help other people across the border. And he found the project a bit dangerous so he told him look I don’t like this idea, it was something with cars and my father was a bit afraid, so he said no lets not do it. He didn’t know he was being watched and he took this man on the motorbike somewhere. That taking him to the next corner or just to the next street was the reason for them to say they cooperated with each other and that’s why he had to go to prison. I talked recently with my father and asked him about those things and he said the Stasi they forced him to be something like a spy for their side. So he was something like a double spy. From one side he was forced but he also wanted to do it but that makes it a bit difficult. He was divorced from my mom and met a new woman and he was already by that time living in the west and she was living in the east and because they wanted to get married and he wanted to take her over the border. So he packed her into a “Faβ”, like a barrel and he put her on a truck and he claimed at the border he had to take something over to his friend and she was sitting inside. She was so afraid and I think it was a big thing for her to go over the border like that. With so many fears and so. But, they made it over successfully had two children and lived happily ever after for some time.
    T: Getting over the border was quite difficult because of all these checkpoints right?
    I: Of course. My uncle who was living in the west they were all living except my granny she had always lived in the west, no wait I have to tell you what happened before. When my granny and my grandpa were living together they were living in a big apartment, that apartment they gave it to my father. So my granny got divorced from my grandpa and moved where she had a hairdresser salon and was living nearby. My grandpa was living near our place but when his radio business didn’t work so well he left to some where else. So this apartment was ours then and I was growing up there with my mother. My granny had lived from the early 50’s in the west. After the wall was built all of her children wanted to be near her and the first one to go across the border was one of my uncles. He made it in the night with two or three people. The first time they wanted to shoot them so they were so afraid they just ran back. Thinking they might get a bullet in their backs. Then they tried it again but in a safer way and went over the wall. He succeeded and the second one to go was my father. Who had to go to prison and then they asked him you want to stay in GDR and he said ah no I will go so he was the second. The third one was my aunt who had to go to prison twice because she wanted to go to the west. They said the same to her that she talked to those “Fluchthilfer” and she stayed in prison for a total of 2 ½ years. After that she made an application and had to wait for 5-6 years before she could leave, this was two years before the border went down. And in all those years she wasn’t allowed to work. She painted things and sold them privately and was given money by family members. Only one of those brother and sisters stayed here in the east.
    T: Since you said you had ties with your father in West Berlin at that time, how did you perceive the western views and politics?
    I: Not so much because he didn’t talk about it probably because he didn’t want to endanger me. My mother was not talking about it, which was because I would probably go to the school and go no that’s wrong I heard it differently and this wasn’t possible in those times. And in that time I wasn’t so interested in politics anyway. Everything I heard came from school or newspapers. But these newspapers always had the same view. Of course when you read these you didn’t think so much. And my family didn’t teach me to talk about it because everything was censored.
    T: Because the government did censor the media.
    F: Of course everything was censored. Only when you could read in between the lines and you had the literature of some East German poets. Probably then you could understand that they didn’t criticize the men but the entire society. But then you would already have the open mind to see something like that. For instance, if you read Casandra nowadays you know what she criticizes but back then you had no thought of it and it didn’t mean so much to me. I didn’t know of all those imprisonments that were being taken, but now after I went to Hohenschoenhausen to that prison to see the people themselves that were being imprisoned there just because of their views or because they were helping other people get out of the state.
    T: Can you describe any other incidents with the Stasi?
    I: My mother was being watched because first she was with my father and then with a man in a higher position like a general director. They were probably watching our whole family. When I became a teacher in 1985 I was talking very freely with my students, you know how my classes are mostly a free discussion, so once when I was talking about the division of Berlin the headmistress of our school just rushed inside our door without knocking or anything, and said what kind of students are you! How can you discuss this matter in such an anti-socialist way! How can you dare do something like this?! After that we realized that she was eavesdropping and after that we just made a joke out of this and when we discussed these topics I would always tell a student to sit by the door and keep watch.
    T: Can you explain your opinion towards the government in your region. Was it a strong dictatorship? Was the Government disrespecting your rights?
    I: The problem is you don’t see the government when you’re a small fish. What you do see is your boss. My bosses were the ones at school. Like this school director later told me my style of teaching is not the correct one I have to teach children in a socialist way. We were all forced to take part in a kind of a meeting and every second week we had to learn how the SED had developed and their results and how good they were. So you saw the government through your boss. And also the FDJ (Free German Youth) the whole class was in this organization and we had every second week to do regular things including going to the movies and such. The catch was that the students had to tell what they had been doing during the past year. Then I found that one of my students had been called to the FDJ “Kreisleitung” meaning that they had been questioning my student about what we did in class. So they were already asking students about their teachers and were making protocols. Even on the day the wall went down. We all went to the border in the first instruction ours, we came back and we were all so excited having dreams about what they would do when they crossed the border. And one of these kids who was also in FDJ was called later by one of the SED members. This girl was very clever and when they asked her about what they did in this morning she simply replied what do you think we did? We obviously had instruction. And then they couldn’t say anything anymore. You see how they were asking children about their teacher.
    T: Can you create a general attitude towards the Russian officers in Berlin?
    I: The problem is I didn’t see so many Russian officers because they left in the 50s. Only some of them stayed. And if you did they were always in separated areas. I was also too young to realize this yet.
    Dissent and Revolt
    T: How would you describe the protests of the 1980s?
    I: Firstly I was living with a former teacher with mine who was in the party, second thing our newspapers didn’t say a lot about it especially about people in the demonstrations. So I didn’t think so much about, I didn’t hear so much about it, I was busy with other things. I was amazed though about how the police went against the demonstrations. You heard about it, but you didn’t pay attention to it. Probably because I thought no the wall is something very solid and big it can’t just go down like that. You heard this so many times you started to believe it.
    T: So you didn’t engage yourself in any demonstrations?
    I: No I didn’t. Probably because of my husband with whom I never discussed such things.
    T: Did you hear Reagan’s speech demanding Mr.Gorbachev to tear down the wall?
    I: No, I only heard Mr.Gorbachev speech which was highly discussed in our time. We all liked him because of his openness. He wasn’t discussed openly such as in school. Only privately.
    Dissent and Revolt
    T: Do you think that protests could’ve reunited Germany earlier?
    I: No, I don’t think so because things have to develop. The dialogue between West and East had a development in the 70s nothing was possible. Until they made negotiations and I think it would’ve been possible. Economically the GDR wasn’t at the end yet but in 1989 there was almost no good working economy anymore and the government wasn’t only compelled by demonstrations to open its border, but they knew that also economically they were going down.
    T: At what point did you feel confident that the country would reunite?
    I: I was never confident. When I heard of it on the 9th, it was something so unbelievable. I saw the crowds moving towards the border. It was just something unimaginable.
    T: And when the wall fell describe the atmosphere.
    I: It was too nice. You know what happened to us on that Friday? As I told you already we were talking the whole day only about that. We had a TV in our classroom only thinking they would bring some new information if we can go over the border yet. The children were happy the parents were happy I came home the same time my friend came. She said here let’s go we’re going to the west. We drove over the border and people were throwing bonbons and sweets at us. We went to her family and then we went to my father and the funny thing was the whole family including my mom and all my uncles and aunts and my granny were all meeting spontaneously at my father’s place. The funny thing was you couldn’t call anyone because the whole telephone system went to pieces and all everything was busy. Nothing was working on the telephone. The borders were already open on Thursday in the evening around ten. So my mother she saw it on TV and she put on her big jacket and went over the border. My father and his wife saw her at the border. So by chance at like 3-4 o’clock in the morning they met each other.
    T: When you did cross the border were you surprised?
    I: No I was not astonished I knew everything already. And I had already gone to the West during the summer because my granny had her birthday.
    T: After the wall fell which side of Berlin did you want to live in?
    I: I’ll make it a story again, last month in October, by chance I found out my class of 77 is meeting again after 30 years. We had all grown up together and when I saw them I asked them where they lived. I was the only one who lived in the west, all the other were still living in the east. You know why because they have their family there. Also they have their job in the east. And if you ask me if I would want the wall back I would say NO NEVER!
    T: What do you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the Berlin division were?
    I: Were there any advantages?!
    T: Depending on what your view is…
    I: No there were no advantages, you know the only advantage is a historical one. The only thing is the allies had a right to divide Germany like that. The problem was that it was so….at one point they created bases for their bases. An American base here a Russian base here and at one point probably created a center for crisis. So historically speaking there might have been a reason why they because they didn’t want something like that ever to happen again so they put their possessions inside which was their right. On the other hand it was exactly the Russians on one side the Americans on the other side which had bin before allies but not after that in the cold war they were obviously against each other. So it was something that was an advantage and a disadvantage when it came to East, West problems. And I think the coming down of the wall and the scattering of the whole Russian system makes the entire thing much easier to handle world matters now. So I don’t see really real advantage of having this wall built.
    Challenges of Unification
    T: And after the wall fell how long did it take your life to feel normal again?
    I: It took some time because so many things were changing but, always step by step. The year after the money was changed in 1990 and then 1 ½ years after the school types were changed not everything was for the good. We just took over everything we heard from the West. Ah “Realschule” we have to have that too. Ah Gymnasium we have to have that too. Not that we wanted to have it, we just got it. You have to make it like so you we made it like that. Now they are trying to build some of those 10 class schools again, like we are. We are a 13 class school, everything is developing together in a way which is a very nice thing for children to have an identification with their school and with their issues and so on which is better than I don’t like this idea about “Grundschule” and then 3 or 4 types of different schools. I don’t know if this is the right thing. This is one out of so many topics. But, I liked it after the wall. You know why? Because there weren’t so many disadvantages for me. I was still a teacher, I was getting good money, I was still getting to be an official here. With a secured income to care for my children, I could travel wherever I wanted to I could see whenever I wanted to so there was no real disadvantage for me. Only the dangers of Capitalism of course they came to me. Like people that came up to me and say oh you should buy this and that you have to give money for real estate and of course I was so dumb not knowing anything what to do. And I made big mistakes in financial matters for instance.
    T: Did you feel that Germany immediately reunified or could you tell it would take some time for Germany to reunite?
    I: Oh I think it will take a very big time to be the same….it can’t be equal…40 years are too long of a time to erase everything at once. It is not possible. And when you really go to the East like Mecklenburg and Sachsen. You can see the mentality is totally different and you can see the mentality is still like when it was in GDR. Not better. Not better. But more East. And many East people have lost their jobs because the wall came down. They were thinking the GDR is functioning so fine which wasn’t a reality but they didn’t know. They always had their job. Whoever wanted a job had a job. Now in Capitalism they were losing it and they were never getting one again like they were 50 or so. So of course when the wall was there I had a nice life and now I have to struggle for my daily life I don’t get enough. So in a way it is understandable that they say it was better before. But I don’t belong to those people.
    T: And now 18 years later is Berlin a better place now?
    I: For me Berlin is the best place. I would never live anywhere else.
    T: What are the challenges Berlin is facing today?
    I: I think the city has come closer together. West people had to go more to the East and East people had to go more into the West. There are some certain topics of ignorance which have to be talked freely about. Which have to be raised up more. Many people are so ignorant and they are looking only in one direction. Like they don’t see so many views. We have such big chance with all those nationalities in this town and its such a colorful and I hate when someone is telling me ahh they are horrible foreigners or oh those shit Deutsche. I don’t like such things. And this is probably speaking for every city. I think Berlin has the problem of the 40 years embracement of that wall. Because people felt secured there, they don’t feel secured now. They want to put the blame on someone. They cant put the blame on the going down of the wall because of course they see in the shops so many nice things, which they can’t get because they don’t have money. So they want to put the blame on somebody. Of course it’s the foreigners of course its somebody else, it’s never me. So sometimes the social problems you can see more in a big city. Of course its erasing partly of the building of the wall.
    T: And for our final question what do kids today have to know who weren’t alive during the division of Berlin? What should they know and what should they understand?
    I: I think everything I told you now…it’s a big big difference to live either in the West or in the East and to grow up like that. They have to know what it means to be in a dictatorship. They have to know that people are really being pursued and put into prison because they had another opinion. Something like that or a dictatorship like that should not happen anymore. If you think about South and North Korea it’s nearly the same nowadays. So we have to be aware of such things. They shouldn’t happen. Democracy is one of the best things we have.
    ZE END

23. Interviewer: Robin Bätz (RB)
    Interviewees: Bettina Becker (BB) and her husband Matthias Schmelz (MS)
    They want to make the interview together because they are not native English speakers
    RB: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    BB: My name is Bettina Becker. I‘m born in Hessen near by Frankfurt and I stayed there until I finished school. I was 18 years old when I went to Paris, one year as an au-pair and then I went for studies to Heidelberg. So Berlin as I get to knew it was to see my friends who came after school to Berlin for studies. Sometimes I stayed here for some weeks, the last time about two month during semester vacation, but I never lived here. Then finally we moved to Berlin about 12 years ago. We live in Kreuzberg and it’s the area I know best, but I work in Prenzlauer Berg. I‘m a psychologist and I have a praxis on my own. There I have a lot of patients who come of the eastern part of Germany. so that’s the contact I have to eastern people.
    MS: My name is Matthias Schmelz. Originally I grew up in North-Bavaria and stayed the most time as adult in Frankfurt and Heidelberg and since 12 years in Berlin. I am a psychologist, too, and work in the east part of Berlin. I live in the west part of Berlin, in Kreuzberg. Now I am interested to hear the questions.
    RB: Well… Please recall your opinions towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    BB: While Berlin was divided I only came here to see my friends as I explained before, and I think the city was kind of special because it was like an island. There was a very special atmosphere, very freaky and a lot of people who came here didn’t want to go to the military service, they were like party oriented .You could go by hitchhiking in the city and there was no “Sperrstunde”, there was no limit how long the bars had open. In Heidelberg you had to go home at 12 o clock, the atmosphere was not so open. You didn’t get in contact very easily. It was more difficult that in Berlin. This was for me very special but that’s not the political part, just the atmosphere of people living here.
    RB: Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
    MS: Oh, I didn’t catch the question exactly….
    RB: Here it comes again: Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
    MS: I have relatives in Eastern Germany and especially in Eastern Berlin. One time, I think in 1988, I visited with my friend Martin Bätz an uncle of me, my mothers brother lived in… oh cousin, not brother… lived in the Eastern part of Berlin as a physician. He had a summer escape like all East Berliners. It was a small hut in the city, just near the wall, in a small garden colony. So I had some contact to the east part.
    RB: So you had family members and friends living on the other side. How did the division come between your friendships or your relations to family members?
    MS: The contact was more formally, because you had to sign a form, to write some weeks before and get an invitation from the relatives to come there. You had to change money to go to the East. It was a lot of work, not so…. easy.
    RB: How were children affected by the partition of the city?
    BB: I can’t tell anything about that.
    MS: Me neither, we hadn’t children at that time.
    RB: ah ok… How, if at all, did you resent the US military presence in Berlin?
    BB: I didn’t remark it but I also haven’t been that often in Berlin at that time.
    MS: I just saw the British… äh American military at Checkpoint Charlie but it was just a military exchange point. I think normal passengers had to go to Springer place to go over the border but Checkpoint Charlie was more an army point.
    RB: Did you notice them in the city, the US military?
    MS: No, but I saw them in Bavaria, in northern Bavaria…
    RB: Ok, how did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin? How were they hurting?
    MS: There was story telling of the “Rosinen” bomber and Berlin Tempelhof, but I think there was a financial transaction from West Germany to West Berlin to keep the western part of Berlin going. There was going a lot of money in the area. There was a lot of political interest to keep Berlin, but I didn’t see really help of West Germany in daily action.
    RB: Did you notice any protests in the 1980’s?
    MS, BB: (both at the same time) No!
    RB: Did you witness any outward aggression against the East German regime? If so, describe these and how they affected your opinions?
    MS: I didn’t know anyone who had aggressions against the eastern government.
    RB: Do you know anything about anti soviet protests?
    MS, BB: No!
    RB: How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov. 9. 1989? Who were you with?
    BB: I was at a friend’s house in Heidelberg, we were watching TV and we did not believe what happened. It was a friend of mine, who lived at that time in Berlin, but she didn’t come originally from Berlin, she came there for her studies, and at the fall of the wall she was in Heidelberg with me and she said:”Oh I can’t believe it. What happens in my city?”
    And it was a very strange feeling. Unbelievable…
    MS: This is a funny thing that I spoke, I think, in September 1989 with a professor… at that time I was employed at the university in Heidelberg and I spoke with a Swedish scientist. He asked me whether I could imagine that the both parts of Germany come together and I said:” I don’t think I will live when this will happen. I can’t imagine that this will happen, that both parts come together.” And then two month later the two parts of Germany came together and it was not believable. Before that I was very convinced that there was no way to unify west and East Germany.
    RB: Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down in Heidelberg where you lived.
    BB: I think a lot of people talked about this happening because it was a very German happening. It was incredible but the people I knew where from the western side of Germany. Not only from Heidelberg but also from Hamburg or from Munich. I have no family and I didn’t know anybody from the eastern part and not from the corner, besides Matthias, or border…we read newspapers and looked TV but then you didn’t really feel it. I think there was no movement where East Germans came to Heidelberg. Perhaps the East Germans came to Giesen, where I originally came from. Formally it was the part where the people came, to be recorded in the western part when the border existed. But I was wondering that you didn’t feel the movement
    MS: I did feel a little bit uncomfortable because my relatives came over and I didn’t have the chance to give presents to them. It was nice to have them in distance and send every now and then a package over, but I was not very happy to see them next to me because they came over to West Germany.
    RB: Did you see any relatives on the day the wall fell?
    MS: No, not on that day but later. But my mother told me, she is living in a little village that was very close to the border to East Germany (East and West Germany were not separated through a wall like Berlin but through a big fence), that when the people from the Eastern part of Germany could come to the Western part, the “Trabbis” stand in line from the border to the next city in West-Germany. The people from the West brought them coffee and tea to their cars because it was very cold. All the people from the East wanted to see the shops in the West. It was a Sunday but the shop-owners opened their shops only for them.
    RB: Were you scared of any prejudices the other side could have had? What did you feel when you first passed through the wall?
    BB: I think it was a very unconventional atmosphere but there was not a lot of mixture, it was more the western people going there and having more to explore.
    RB: How were the living conditions on the other side? Were you surprised by the conditions in any ways?
    BB: At that moment I knew a little bit and now I know a lot because I have a lot of patients and they describe how they used to live. I was not surprised of the standard of living because I knew they had apartments without bathrooms, and that they didn’t have a heating system and things like this. It was a standard that my grandparents used to have. I think it was a bit different of living together. There were very good things but also for me very strange things. They had for example “Kitas” for the children, so every woman could work. So the emancipation was better but they had as well to neglect their children. They had week-“Kitas” where you bring the children on Monday morning and pick them up on Friday after work. For me it would be very strange to be so less emotional. It was a very unemotional system. Or not system but society.
    RB: Did you worry about your future (or that of your family) as a result of the fall of the wall? If so, how?
    MS: No, not really. For a lot of people it was a chance to get new markets. I knew a lot of guys who sold their cars to the eastern part. So I wasn’t afraid. I worked at a university as I mentioned and a lot of scientists got to the eastern universities to work there, so it was more a chance than a risk
    RB: After the wall fell, when you moved here, did you have a specific part where you wanted to live?
    MS: Well yes, when we came, it was in 1995, we moved to Kreuzberg because we knew it the best. We visited it a lot of times before and it was more familiar.
    RB: What did it mean to you personally when the wall fall? Can you give a few examples of how your personal life changed?
    BB: It didn’t change my live at all!
    MS. We lived at that time in Heidelberg so that I can’t mention any change. My daily live wasn’t really affected. But in the middle of the 90’s we decided to come to Berlin to get more involved with the political change and to get a better image of processes of eastern Germany and eastern Berlin especially.
    RB: If you could’ve done something different on 9 November what would you change or would you change anything? Please give examples.
    MS: Political?
    RB: No, just would you have gone anywhere different?
    BB, MS: No
    RB: How did your perspective of the world change after the fall?
    MS: Yes for me, like I mentioned, very very exciting in personal perspective to have so wrong estimation of the political situation. For me it was incredible to get a union for both parts so it was that everything was possible. I didn’t think that the eastern part could break down so immediately. I was astonished to have wrong estimation of the political situation.
    RB: Did the wall fall at the right time? Did it happen the right way?
    MS: I think it was to late (laughs). It should have happened earlier because in our professional work we see a lot of strange biographic things because of the social and political things. A lot of people also our relatives were very strange. We spoke the same language but we couldn’t share the same emotions. The people from the east were very materialistic and as I met them after the fall of the wall they just talked about where they are going to get their new television and their new car and where it’s the cheapest and so we lost our relatives. Before we visited them every year and were together a week or two and after the wall breakdown there was no contact anymore because the first meeting with them was so strange that we didn’t keep contact. Once I had to bring a TV from a dead family member to relatives of him and it was a really big and heavy TV, and as I came there and went the stairs up, they all said there he comes, there he comes, but they didn’t mean me, they meant the TV. Then they took it really fast out of my hands and installed it and as they turned it on it didn’t work. Then they all said that I stole the right TV and gave them the broken one. And that was a really strange experience for me.
    RB: What do you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
    BB: Of the division?
    RB: Yes
    MS: There was no advantage of the division. I think it was a catastrophe for the country…
    RB: …and the disadvantages?
    MS: There was separation of families how I told. In our family we lost half the family because my mother was grown up in the eastern part and came during the war to the western part and we lost family there. There was contact as the country was divided but the ways went different directions of our family.
    RB: Did you (or do you), in any ways, wish that the wall remained?
    BB: No
    MS: No
    RB: How did the fall of the wall affect you personally? How long it did take your life to feel “normal” after the fall of the wall?
    MS: We both lived to far away to really get involved with that thing. There was no effect or no shock. We found it strange but there was no really change in our live.
    BB: I wasn’t involved either but I think even if the wall wouldn’t have been build there wouldn’t be more closeness to the eastern side because my family came from the western part for generations and even if the wall wouldn’t have been build East Germany or Poland or Czech Republic would not be closer to me.
    RB: In 1989, did you feel that Germany immediately unified or could you tell that it would take some time for Germany to become one whole?
    BB: I think it still lasts on. I think it’s not unified yet. It’s unified, perhaps, for the younger people and for those who have advantages but there are a lot of people who didn’t take part in the unification, so I think for them it’s still a disadvantage. They don’t feel like a winner of the unification and I think it will last at least one or two generations because the people who are now young have parents who still feel and understand values like they used to be and that’s how they treat their children and the children of the children.
    RB: Explain how well the east and west integrated after the wall came down? Describe some of the successes and failures of integration.
    MS: I think in professional perspective there were some failures because companies in the eastern part and economy broke down, so a lot of companies of the west bought companies of the east and just used the companies so they won’t have any competition. For example in Sachsen, there lived most of my relatives; they all went to the western part so the eastern part didn’t have a big benefit. It was wrong to break down the industry there.
    BB: I think they didn’t take care about the socialisation and mentality of the eastern part because there was the dictatorship of Hitler and then it was the second dictatorship so for generations they have not been socialised to be responsible for what they do. They didn’t have to have an own opinion. They had to hide it. I think the mentality was: not to do to much, not to be seen to much. That’s different to the mentality we have been educated in the western part. The eastern people just got thrown in the society of the western people. I think they should have moved in slowly.
    RB: Is the economic status of East and West equal? If not, what can or should be done about this?
    MS: The economic status is not equal but I don’t know any solution…
    BB: I just can only say that the money you get from my work is a lot more than the money you get with the same job in the east. So why should you then work in the east when you can get more money for the same work in the western part of the country. I don’t know if it’s in other branches the same way. They could perhaps change this.
    RB: Are formerly east and west sectors equally represented in the political arena?
    MS: Sectors sounds like Berlin?
    RB: Yes
    MS: I think in Berlin the east and west are equal in representation.
    RB: If you were a member of the German government from 1989-present, what would you have done differently to ease the transition to one Germany?
    MS: I think it was wrong to catch people like Kohl. For example Poland and Czech Republic didn’t get any money from the western countries and their economy, especially in Poland, the economy got better than in East Germany. I think they shouldn’t have broken down their industries but looking more in which parts the eastern part could develop. And I think the eastern part didn’t develop really.
    RB: 18 years later, what significant differences do you notice in Berlin since Germany has been reunited? In what ways is Berlin a better place? In what ways is it perhaps a less desirable city?
    BB: I think it’s richer. I think you can feel it in Prenzlauer Berg it developed a lot. There is a lot of money put into bars and shops. It’s a very good development. And it’s now an international capitol and it will develop further.
    Disadvantages…I think it was a very special place and it’s a pity that it doesn’t exist because it was this little island of slow motion and alternative thinking people. But I now recognize this tendency in East Germany, in Uckermark, because we go there often for vacation and I think a lot of searching and innovative people go there, making alternative farming and that’s good to have these different ways of life for this whole tendency.
    RB: Would you describe Berlin as a “unified” city today? Why or why not?
    MS: Berlin is unified, yes. You can not identify whether people come from east or from west. Its older people were you can see where they come from and say for example this is an East German. But the city is normally mixed.
    RB: What are the primary challenges facing Berlin today? How much are these challenges a result of the partition?
    BB: I think Berlin is a poor city and that’s a problem because under a certain social limit it’s difficult to live or difficult to change something. For a lot of people it’s difficult to participate in developing the society because they are so poor. It’s a problem but at the same time that’s why rent is so low and a lot of artists come here. I know an artist working in Frankfurt or having his gallery there and living in Berlin because it’s cheaper and there’s a big community of artists and that’s very inspirational for the atmosphere. A lot of people have jobs not in Berlin like to come here or have an apartment here because it’s so cheap and to feel and take part in this atmosphere. For example a friend of Matthias was a photographer in New York and he was here in Berlin and he wanted to move to Berlin because here is so a good atmosphere.
    RB: What is the primary challenge that needs to be met in order to unite Germany today?
    BB: I don’t know whether the problem of the not unification is still the problem of the division or it’s like I said before the differences between the different areas. The Uckermark for example used to be poor the whole time. It didn’t develop as good as the south part of Germany where the Romans were a long time ago. It isn’t really a problem of the former DDR.
    RB: In conclusion, what should young people today, who were not alive at the time of partition, know about the fall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
    MS: I think the separation was unnatural, was very cruel for families, and for the nation it was a pity. But now you can not make it undone, so you have to know it but do the best with the thing, but I can not give any information or advises for young people.
    BB: I think like you do. For Berliners it was a big change to be separated. For them it felt like before they could go to any place and now they could not. Or see some people they used to see before. Oh and I didn’t say this. The separation of Germany has changed the process to work with the TRAUMA of the war and that’s a problem because they inhibited a little bit because they made a FEINDBILD of each other so they didn’t see the inner conflict. The conflict was between the parts of Germany. And that changed the treatment. It’s perhaps interesting to understand why it’s still an important theme because if I would be young I would ask myself why is it so important to think about this wall and about the Jewish thing and now it’s a new area of thinking what happened before the division of Germany.
    RB: Do you have some interesting stories to tell?
    MS: Once as I visited relatives in Dresden, I went by car and I picked up a Russian soldier who hitchhiked and he spoke a little German. As I mentioned that I’m from the west he immediately asked me to stop and went out, and he said that he is not allowed to go with people from the west. It was very interesting for me to have this experience.
    RB: Thank you for this interview and that you to took the time to answer my questions. I know it was hard for you to talk English but you did a great job.

24. Merci:On What side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living?
    Martina:I was living in West Berlin, it didnt really affect me since it was normal for me to be surronded by a wall. When my famiy traveld with a car to West Germany we always had to wait along time at the border to east Germany. Sometimes they checked the whole car and we always had to check the speed limit, when we traveld through east Germany because the east German police was hiding behind bushes to check the speed. If you got caught speeding you had to pay alot of money.
    Merci:Please recall your opinions(of the time) towards the division of Berlin.Did you support the division?Why or why not? In you your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    Martina: At the time when the wall came down i was very happy about it. Later on i had doubts because we had to pay alot of money to rebuild east Germany. This money came out of everybodies paycheck.
    Merci:How were children affected by the partiton of the city?
    Martina:It was a normal situation for me. since i grew up in a divided city it was normal for me. I never thought about it how life would be without a wall. West Berlin attracted alot of tourists because they wanted to see the wall. Along the wall they built towers for the tourists to look over to the east side.
    Merci: Can you provide examples of balant censorship/propaganda on either side?
    Martina:there was a show called “Der Schwarze Kanal”.
    Merci: How was this Propaganda?
    Martina: It was a show that made the west look bad and the east good.
    Merci:How, if at all, did tou resent the US military presence in Berlin?
    Martina:Nope, i never resented them, i love the US military because i felt that they protected us.
    Merci: How did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin? How were they hurting?
    Martina:Thwy gave West Berliners more money for living in Berlin it was called “Berlin zulage”, it was a few 100 DM every month.
    Merci:Do you think that the protests of the 1980’s among East Berliners were more to bring down the wall or to get more justice WITHIN the divided state? Explain?
    Martina: I think it was more becuase the people wanted to be free, becuase they lived in a closed environment.
    Merci: Did you hear Reagan’s speech? If you did, can you describe the initial reaction from the crowd when Reagan said,”Mr. Gorbachev,tear down this wall.”?
    Martina:Yes, i did hear the speach, but i wasnt their, i think the crowd cheerd.
    Merci:At what point did you feel confident that the country was going to be reunited? what happend to make you confident that reunification was on its way?
    Martina: When they started protesting in the East every week and more and more people gatherd together. I felt like the people really wanted to be free.
    9 November 1989
    Merci:How did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night of Nov.9.1989?Who were you with?
    Martina:I was sick, i had the flu, i did not listen to radio ot watch television.My mother called me and let me know what was going on.
    Merci:How did you feel?
    Martina: I felt really happy for the East Germans?
    and beyond…
    Merci: Were you scared of any prejudices the other side could have had? What did you feel when you first passed through the wall?
    Martina:No, i wasnt, i took a walk with my boyfriend and it was a wierd feeling to just continue on walking without any borders.
    Merci:How were the living conditions on the other side? Were you suprised by the conditions in any ways?
    Martina: Yes, i was suprised because it did not look very upcapped. Suprisingly we found bullet holes from World War II on some of the buildings.
    Merci: What were the challenges that you personally faced after the wall fell?
    Martina: I had to pay more taxes and the “Berlin Zulage”
    Merci:After the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in and why?
    Martina: I always wanted to live in West Berlin because thats where i grew up and thats where my family and friends were.
    In Retrospect…
    Merci:If you could’ve done something different on 9 November what would you change or would you change anything? Please give examples.
    Martina:I wish i wouldn’t have been sick i would have been more part of the celebration that went on.
    Merci: What did you think the advantages and the disadvantages of the division of Germany were?
    Martina: The advantages were you recieved more money when you were working. West Berlin was a safer place. The disadvantages were that you were surronded by a wall and could not pass it.

25. Interview
    Mr. Rath: I was born in the United States. I came here 1975 as a soldier. I stayed over here and I saw the wall when it was up; I saw the wall when it came down. I came out of the army before the wall was even down, in 1978. I worked by the British forces because I couldn’t speak the German language. Then I joined the BSR, which is a trash company over here in Berlin, just cleaning the streets, that’s where I’m working at right now. Well, I just want to help this kid out with the questions he has about the wall.
    Mrs Rath: Well I’m John’s wife and I’m German. Born in Berlin, West in 1955. So, the wall came up, when I was 6 years old and I don’t have many memories about it. But I do remember the day the wall came down. And I’ve been asked several times by tourists and friends if I saw the chance that the wall will ever come down and I actually denied it, because to me it seemed like the wall would be there forever.
    Me: On November 9th, how did you find about the fall of the wall: TV, Radio Friends etc.?
    Mrs. Rath: Ok… It was a Thursday morning and we got up like everyday to go to work and we had the radio running and the radio news said that the wall was down. And I said to my husband, “It can’t be” because it sounded like an April-fools joke. So, we out into the street, and we lived down in Spandau, which is quite near to the wall and we saw all kinds of east cars…
    Mr. Rath: Called Trabbies
    Mrs. Rath: Called Trabbies and they were parked all over the streets; in none parking areas and it was only amazing. Nobody wanted to believe what actually happened.
    Mr. Rath: We had my wife’s co-worker over at are house in the morning time and she left a note on her door in case one of these east people came over to see us; to see her, because they knew exactly where we were at; where she was at. She went over to our house and I’d say after about a half-hour being over there eating breakfast with us, the doorbell rang and a lot of east people came running up the stairs. She said to the people, “Oh, you guys here?” “Yeah the wall has come down.” She knew the wall was down. Then they were crying and taking each other in the arms. They were so happy to see each other, because the co-worker of my wife came over the wall had come down.
    Mrs. Rath: Myself, I never had any relatives in the east. As far as I know, so we obviously had no contact and when those relatives came from my co-worker and they started crying, and hugging each other, and smiling, and laughing at the same time I really had goose bumps. I felt really attached to the moment and, in my eyes, for the very first time, I actually understood what it meant to be apart from each other for so many years.
    Me: What was your first emotion that you felt, when you found out that Germany was reunited?
    Mr. Rath: I was glad they reunited, but its also brought a lot of problems to Berlin and Germany itself. They’re still trying to work out certain things: The unemployment went sky high, they wanted money from the west people, they took money away from us, they… I don’t know… It was just…
    Mrs. Rath: My first emotions were completely different. I didn’t trust the situation. My head was completely scrambled. I didn’t know if they might change everything again. If maybe they try to get the people back into the east. It wasn’t a situation you would believe from one minute to the other; it did take a long time to understand what went on. Of course we watched TV and we saw the picture of people climbing the wall, how they hugged each other, how they celebrated with each other and it did bring up many positive emotions.
    Mr. Rath: Well, me being an American citizen also being an ex-soldier when the wall came down, I was sitting there thinking about what’s the situation was going to be like with the Russian soldiers. What was going to happen with the American soldiers, the British soldiers, the French soldiers; what will happen to them all? Are they going to stay here, even though the wall is down or are they going to get rid of them, push them somewhere else? Well, they’ve got the Americans down in western Germany right now.
    Me: After you heard the first news, you must have gone outside. How were the people reacting around?
    Mr. Rath: They were overjoyed. They were all taking bottles of champagne and opening the bottles and saying “Prost” to everybody. It was, I could say, like a big party out in the streets. They were glad. They were back together again. They were reunited again as one and not divided up into two different groups.
    Mrs. Rath: I realized that all the east people went to the stores to see what they could maybe buy and what kind of shopping they could do. After all they did get money, a kind welcome money, which was 100 DM per head and I went shopping and was looking for a blouse or some clothes to buy. An east woman next to me said, “Oh, my money, my 100 Marks, is not enough. Can you give me some more because I would like to have this item here: Well, I’m honest, I did not give the money to her, because I would have had to give it to everybody right there and then.
    Me: So, didn’t you give her the money because you did not want to share with everybody or didn’t you because you did not trust her enough?
    Mrs. Rath: Oh, I would have trusted her, but in a way everybody would have asked for money, since they were kind of crazy about finally going shopping and getting things the West Berlin people had. My opinion is that I can’t just give to one person. I need to give to everybody. That’s why I didn’t give her any money.
    Mr.Rath: When the wall came down on Thursday and I went back to work on Monday, I was on my way and these couple of people came up to me, they were lined up in front of the banks, at least two blocks long, to get this money from the state and they kept saying to me, “would you like to earn 20 Marks?” And I say, “how am supposed to earn 20 Marks?” “Well go in there, tell them you’re an east person, you want to get that money from them.” And I say, “I’m an American citizen and I won’t do it. The East Germans also wanted to get rid of the Trabbie cars; they didn’t have any power behind them. The West Berliners actually pulled the wool over the East Germans eyes and sold the cars for a lot of money. This also caused a lot of accidents because they didn’t know how to get along with the horsepower of the cars. That’s how the West Berlin people got rid of their old cars, so they could get new cars.
    Me: Did all the East Berliners just want to buy new stuff, because they had been waiting a long time to get what the West had?
    Mrs. Rath: Not necessarily new, but they wanted to get up to the standards the West people had.
    Mr. Rath: But that was hard, because we worked our entire lives to build ourselves up the way we were. But they tried to do it all at once, quick. That can’t happen.
    Mrs. Rath: Lots these people, that’s what I’ve been told from them, did stack up money, West money, and kind of saved it and actually bought everything they could get their hands on. Starting with cars, as John already said, and it was pretty close to Christmas after all and everybody still got enough, but it was harder. The regular shopping wasn’t as usually. The marked hadn’t expected the wall to come down.
    Me: Because of that was it hard for you to find anything?
    Mrs. Rath: We recognized that there was kind of a hole. We got what was necessary to get, but we had to look longer, we had to go more often to cover our needs.
    Mr. Rath: Christmas time, for example, they had these chocolate Santa Clauses and all the sweets the Germans have for their kids. We went a week before Christmas to get all the stuff. It was all sold out because all the Germans, west and East, did which was they went in and bought and they bought and they bought and they bought. So we didn’t have anything to give our kids. But I finally found a store, after about 3 days of looking for it.
    Me: When did you go over to east for the first time and if you didn’t go over right away, was this caused by some sort of prejudice? How were the conditions that you saw?
    Mrs. Rath: Well… It took me about 9 months until I finally made the decision to go and have a look. I was scared to find things, which I didn’t want to see. And I always had in my mind that maybe someone would put the wall back up and not let me through again. So it did take quite a long time and when I finally did go over there, of course I went into a shopping centre and it was different, so much different, compared to ours, that they had no escalators, you had to walk stairs, you had the items; the same items stretched over a complete floor like pots and pans. Only very simple, noting special, nothing terrific, but cheap… It was definitely cheap. And… the whole atmosphere made me sad, because it was so much different than in the West. Besides, I recognized that the buildings were old, kind of rotten, worn down. The streets were…
    Mr. Rath: There were craters in the road, man, big old holes in the road.
    Mrs. Rath: The air was dirty from the east cars, because they used different gas and when you came back into the West you had a different smell; a fresher air than in the East.
    Mr. Rath: Depended on which way the wind was blowing. (Chuckles)
    It fascinated me how wide the streets were, that they had so much room, but still it seemed to me that nobody took care of the building and the conditions of the East Berlin city.
    Mr. Rath: First time I went over after the wall came down, was when I drove the bus for the British and then for the BSR. My buddy asked me if I would like to drive this information bus that was going to start for the firm to get the people to ask us questions about our job: When they would come clean the streets, when they’d have to do this, when they’d have to do that. When I drove the bus and went over to the east for the first time, I was sort of scared to go over there, because I didn’t know if I was going to have Russians around or soldiers or what was going to go on. Yeah, just like my wife said, the buildings were down, the roads weren’t all that good. The people were friendly in a way, but strange. It was not the West Berlin people way. The way they live and talk, whatever, get along with you. They were just held back, shy, just not very open. And… that sort of gave me a funny feeling inside. I didn’t know how to accept it right away, but now I don’t have a problem with it.
    Mrs. Rath: Besides, I noticed that when we went down there and spent the day in East Berlin, we wanted to eat something and tried to get into a restaurant and they just searched for the people they would like to have visiting the restaurant. They did not let everyone in. They let the West German people go and get coffee and cake or whatever, but the East people had to stand in line and waited outside. So, it even took the East people quite a while to change their attitude of service and hospitality.
    Me: Why do you think the East Germans had to stand in line?
    Mrs. Rath: At the time the wall was up everything you bought in the east was hard to get. So, for an example: oranges. In case they ever had oranges to sell, the people were standing in line for the men with oranges hours before they even showed up and then finally the oranges came, but they only lasted for 10 or 20 people, then they were sold out and nobody complained. The people who didn’t get an orange went back home. It was usual. The same thing was in restaurants; only privileged people were allowed to go in and have coffee or cake or something to eat. They had to reserve their seats and if they were normal people like you and me, they maybe never got in. So, the East people were used to this and familiar with this, but as a West person I never had such contacts and I recognized that they still made this difference after nine months after the wall came down.
    Me: When the wall came down, were you scared about what might change in your future?
    Mrs. Rath: Well, I remember very well the speeches on the TV and radio, when the politicians said that it may take about 10 about 15 years until they maybe get equalized; the West and the East. I wondered what they meant. After all everybody had their job. I never had the idea that the whole industry and working possibilities died off in the East, because we knew that the East people had a guarantee on their job. I never believed that it changed so hard that all the manufactures

26. History Interview
    B: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    J: I was born in West Berlin 1950, and have spent most of my life, except for some excursions, in west Berlin as well. In the year 1989 I produced a TV magazine for SFB which was a scene magazine made for younger people. It’s name was 45 fever. We talked about all kinds of innovative topics, about somewhat weird but interesting people, which represented Berlins reputation very well: A place where you could experiment new ideas, for people who tried to do things different from the main stream, that’s what Berlin stood for since about the 70’s. So my job, was to search for something interesting, something new, or people that do something special.
    On the 11. November 1989 I was invited to dinner from a friend of mine. We ate, chatted very long, and had a good time. She lived in a side street of the Kurfürstendamm. At about 1:30 or 2:00 in the morning, I left without having watched the news, TV, radio, or anything else. I went down the stairs, into ma car, and I will never forget what happened then: I drove the few meters to Uhlandstraße and then down the kurfürstendamm, where the cinema Paris is. And there were unbelievable, enormous masses of people. It was about 2 o’clock in the morning. The entire Kudamm was flooded with people who bawled and shouted, like at a soccer match.
    M: Similar to the Soccer world championship 2006 in Berlin?
    J: Yes, but you must imagine, it was in the middle at the night, and are just on your way home, it was a normal workday. You wanted to go sleep now because tomorrow morning you would leave to work, as always. And at first when I arrived I didn’t have a clue what was going on. So I parked my car, because it wasn’t possible to drive down the kurfürstendamm because of all the crowds, that where making noise, there was some music hear, some tones there, it was just an unbelievable atmosphere. So very soon I was told that the wall was open I a couldn’t believe it. It was so out of time: Something had happened that you wouldn’t ever had dreamed of. Something absolutely unexpected had happened, that turned the whole life in Berlin upside down. And you had the feeling, I think everybody had it, it was such a special aura, which made you feel like world history was happening here. Even today, when I talk about this, I feel a cold shiver run down my back and I get goose bumps. You had the felling that something extraordinary was happening. It felt like a miracle was happening. Because if you grew up in Berlin and always lived with the division and the felling that you got each time you drove down the Straße des 17. Junis, this beautiful, empty alee, that you will probably never, in your entire life time witness that this will become a street that leads behind and beyond the Brandenburger Tor.
    I had talked very often about this, with many people, when we drove down this wonderful street. We always thought that we would never witness this, maybe in a 100 years or so the wall would fall, but we were extremely positive that this would happen during our life time. So I walked up and down the kudamm and talked with strangers, who were all cheering with champagne and what so ever. And after a while I drove home, and my current boyfriend was a nervous wreck and he was so worried about me because I came home at about 5:00 o’clock in the morning and that’s normally not my style. When I came home I started realizing that this really was the beginning of a new era.
    B: Your friend didn’t know about the wall opening at the time you came home?
    J: Oh yes, of coarse he knew. When I came home with sparkling eyes he was at first relieved, and then he said: O.K. now I have to go out and see this. So he went and also so the same astonishing masses and felt the same aura. He returned at about 8 in the morning even though he had to be at work at that time as well.
    M: Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable? Why or why not?
    J: I think nobody thought that the wall was a good idea. Everybody thought it was sick, unnatural, and sign for great helplessness of the system, that cant rule, or act in a way that lets the people of this land wand to stay voluntarily. The wall was a permanent burden for us. You grew up in a city which ended after a few kilometres. Luckily Berlin has a lot of seas and woods, but it was a completely constrained situation. Travelling and everything was so much costlier and complicated. Because we didn’t have a real surroundings. An we were always called islanders. Berlin was an island. It was internationally unique.
    B: What kinds of restrictions did you have to face when travelling?
    J: When I wanted to leave Berlin with the car, I had to wait in a long line. It was always a long line, no matter at what time of the day you came. You always had to wait, wait, wait until it was your turn to show your passport and so on. And you couldn’t say anything wrong or something that could be seen as a provocation from any tiny angle or perspective. There were a lot of restrictions with luggage. Especially with music records. But also with all kinds of other things that they saw as dangerous or potentially harming to their political system. You always had a queasy feeling at the border. You always felt like they might find something “forbidden” from their perspective. Very often you would have to get out of the car, open your car trunk, and let them look for all kinds of these forbidden things. But they were mainly doing this routine to look if you were smuggling anybody in your trunk. You could reckon that every trip out of Berlin took about 1.5 hours longer because you had to stand at the border so long. But that is nothing compared to my childhood, where I had to stand 3-4 hours at the border because everybody and every corner was checked so carefully at that time. Awful! So this led to the conclusion that fewer people would want to drive out or into west Germany. I remember that in my childhood I always flew with the airplane. No matter if our travel destination was near or far. If we wanted to go to Hamburg, Hanover, or Munich for example, we took the plane instead of the car, only to avoid this terrible checking zone and the DDR at the borders. I didn’t travel over to east Berlin that often. For example the German theatre or the Friedrichstadtpalast, or the Staatsoper, those were all places where you could go to.
    But every time you wanted to go there you had to propose for papers first. That means that every time you wanted to go over to the east side, you had wait in a long line at a side street of Bahnhof Zoo and then propose for an entry permit. And when you were at the border of west/east Berlin, you got searched extremely thoroughly from top till bottom because they feared, or wanted to prevent that you were carrying books, music records or any other subversive things, that you may leave on the other side.
    So this was again a ugly situation, that these truly stupid, sickening, narrow-minded idiots wanted and tried to dictate and rule over your life. Some people faced this very bravely and just tried to sit it out because they absolutely wanted to go shopping in east Berlin because of the cheap prices there. A lot of people also drove over to east Berlin because of its culture: Berliner ensemble, Volksbühne… A lot of people also wanted to buy books there because of their cheap price. Though I travelled rarely, I worked for a radio station called “SF Beat”, the prototype of “Fritz” and “radio1” in the 70’s, years before I worked for the TV (rbb). I also moderated this station, and had thousands of fans in east Berlin. Since the east Berliners could phone and write to you, I got a lot of mail from them. And sometimes I met up with them, and of coarse I always tried to bring them something from the western side. In most cases music records. Music records was “the number one passion” everything was about music, music, music, at that time. But we always tried to smuggle magazines clothes or records every time we went over to the other side. But I didn’t have any family members in east Berlin.
    M: So in fact you had some friends or made some friends in east Berlin?
    J: No, not many, I did know some people from east Berlin which I met every now and then, but to be honest, I could live very good without east Berlin and the DDR . I didn’t belong to those people who really had good friends on the other side.
    Most of the times when I travelled I went to the western side of the world.
    M: But wasn’t it difficult or time consuming to go over the border to meet these contacts that you hade on the other side.
    J: No, you see, it was always a little work related because of the radio station.
    But to some it up I didn’t have any private, good friends or contacts on the other side, and a lot of the people of my generation on the western side didn’t have any friends there. We really lived in two completely different worlds. When families where split up or if you were political involved or so, that it was harder and a more difficult situation. But I didn’t do and have these things.
    M: How did you feel that the West was helping west Berlin? Or were they rather hurting it?
    J: Of coarse they were helping us. The picture of America was much better and more admirable than today. Of coarse there was the Vietnam war or other negative things about America, but still the main attitude of America was great from our point of view. For most of the people America acted like an role model for us. America was something with which you liked to identify yourself. But we only noticed a part of America, we always notice the positive and wonderful America. Our perspective of America was created from the Hollywood America and the rock n’ roll America. Of coarse we new that America also had racial segregation and discrimination. But we also knew that a lot of Americans didn’t support these issues. And America was a middle class land for a very long time, even until the 80’s where the range from rich to poor wasn’t presented to you that dramatic as it is the case now. So if you were at least a bit educated and socially involved, you noticed that the beautiful positive sides of America are as impressive as the negative sides as well.
    M: Where you ever involved in any demonstrations of revolts against the system?
    J: Well, revolts didn’t exist in west Berlin. There were some collegian demonstrations from the younger people and I think I participated in one demonstration, but I wasn’t that active. I guess I didn’t belong to this 68 generation who demonstrated a lot.
    M: Did you notice or hear about a lot of brutalities in the protests of the east especially?
    J: The protests from the east weren’t as heavy or brutal as you might think. I mean they were citizen movements. The evangelic church was kind of meeting place where a lot of people met. And only at the very end of the walls existence, in the middle of the cities, especially in Leipzig where the Monday-demonstrations begun, and that carried on to Berlin from there. But in Leipzig the whole thing took place first. So every Monday the met up for demonstrations, revolts, or any other things to stop the system. And the number of people involved increased very rapidly. And that continued in Berlin as well. But it wasn’t that brutal. But everything was still pretty disciplined, far better than in most other countries which have demonstrations. On shortly after or while the whole thing increased in insensitivity and started really “boiling”, the 11. Of November was there.
    M: Did you notice a lot of escapes or attempts to do so, before the wall fell?
    J: Oh yes, uncountable attempts were made. A lot of tragically stories.
    M: How did you know from these stories?
    J: The media spread these stories a lot. And still today at many museums and at check point Charlie you can see how creative and tragically these attempts where. And there are also many movies about this. And we also witnessed the “wall dead” people who were killed for attempting an escape. These were all big stories for the press which made clear what an obstinate system this was.
    M: After the wall fell, did you feel the need to go to the eastern side, or did you rather want to stay west.
    J: Yes I went to east Berlin. I think most of the people were just so curious and wanted to see this other side of the world. I mean I didn’t really know east Berlin because I found it awful anyway. So I went over to the east, and the first thing you noticed was the smell. Since it was November, the houses had to be heated, and the east was still being heated with coal. If you were used to the west, neutral smell, you couldn’t stand this awful smell. You couldn’t believe that people could live hear. So in all these regions like Mite or Prenzlauer Berg, where we went, it smelled completely different that in the west. They also didn’t have an environmental protection or anything like that. That was only the first thing, the smell, unbelievable. And then you have to imagine, we went through wedding, near to Carl Heinz Friedrich straße, and suddenly there wasn’t any light there anymore. You have to imagine it smelled terrible and you didn’t even have any light. And since it is pretty dark the entire November, it was always and everywhere just dark. Because, the whole culture there, there were at the most some cheap, cold, neon light lamps. But there was 0, absolutely no advertisement. Advertisement just didn’t exist in this system. In the west you have bright lanterns on the streets and all the shops have light and everything seems pretty bright and nice there. But in the east they didn’t have these nice lanterns, and there were only very few shops. There was about one tenth of the number of shops that the west side had. In living blocks, there where principally no shops at all. Shops where only in big alleys, and only very small and “messy”. So there was no light, no advertisements, which lead to the fact that nothing colourful existed there. You must imagine, every house was grey. There was not one single house in Mitte for example that was not grey. The only exception was at Prenzlauer berg, Kollwitzplatz, Husebornstraße. This street was the only exception which they had renovated or made pretty as a showpiece street for the 750 years anniversary of Berlin. They renovated somewhere around 1985/1986. But they did this so poorly that 1989 everything looked run down again and brook apart already. Other than that, everything was extremely run down, chaotic, and where grey (pointing on my grey sweatshirt, and my even darker sweatshirt hood). And additional to all these horrible conditions it was extremely quiet because rarely cars where driving in the east. And those cars that did exist there, were all Trabi’s, which smelled even worse that the heating coal. So it was a completely different world n which you entered. The difference was like night and day. Day being the west and night being the east.
    M: Did you worry that all these east Berliners would come over to the west side and that the west would become overcrowded?
    J: They all came over to the west. And I met up with some east Berliners at Prenzlauer Berg that did something interesting. East Berlin was a new region for my TV show, which looked for interesting, innovative, young people or things. And of coarse there were a lot of people who had some interesting funny, maybe a little wacko stores, or backyard restaurants. But also a lot of creative people that where involved with theatres and or art and so on. And so we came in contact with these people and this was a extremely exciting time because these people where so different because of the conditions they lived and grew up in. And you came from the west, and had to try to build up an atmosphere, a certain trust or chemistry to these people. You were always seen as the rich aunt from the west. We had trendy clothes and all kinds of extras and so on. And they… they didn’t have anything. So you had to first build up an chemistry in order for a more or less trustful, open, conversation to take place. Thankfully this enabled pretty fast because most of the people I talked to already knew my show. My show was very hip in east Berlin and a lot of them watched it, because that way they could see how the west was like and what was going on outside of their small east Berlin “prison”. I just had to say my name and that was like an code word for trust. They knew me from my show and so they felt more familiar and comfy because of that. The SF Beat was a pretty political orientated show and rather left. The radio was the medium that transmitted and connected the people the best because not everybody in the east had an TV. And even if you had an TV in the east you had to be very careful because you weren’t aloud to watch all west programs, and if you get caught watching it, so for example if your children accidentally admitted that they know a movie or a TV series from the west, the parents immediately got in trouble. So the parents had to teach their kids not to tell anybody that they were watching a west show because it was illegal. You must imagine that, you sit there with your parents and they tell you: O.K. kid, we’ll watch a TV program now, but you cant tell anyone.
    M: In what specific ways did the wall opening change your life and the general life in west Berlin?
    J: It changed my personal life, as well as my working life extremely, and for sure not positively. Of coarse it was great that we now had the possibility to live a normal life, to live in a city with borderland, and that Berlin has developed in this way is sensational. And you can only see this development positively. My working life changed a lot in the following ways: Because at that time I worked for the SFB and we didn’t have a own complete TV program. We used to belong to the N3 program. So we worked together with the NDR and had small short programs which meant that we could make very expensive, good, and interesting TV programs. And we had really interesting topics to talk about. And after the wall opening they said: Now we are so important and famous, we’ll open an own station, called the B1 TV. In addition, this meant that we had to produce about 12 hours a day of TV, with the same amount of money with which we used to produce only 3 hours a day. Therefore, we could not afford all these smaller, more interesting, ambitious programs and topics, and instead had to talk longer, about less interesting regional and interregional topics. So the TV station developed more of a quantitative class, rather that a qualitative one. Moreover, this was a major problem for me because I was always responsible for he quality. Then there was a fusion with SFB and ORB. And this is another thing that has changed my working life. For the Berliners in general, myself included because I am a permanent employee. Every Berliner who was permanently employed, received a Berlin-Zulage.
    This means, that they received 15% of their income additionally. They received this because the whole city had to always be supported. You principally earned less in Berlin that in west or north Germany. And so the city subsidized every permanent working people. And after the wall opening this Berlin-Zulage got diminished extremely fast. This means that every permanent employee have earned 15% less in the diminishing process that lasted only 3 years until it was at 0%. That’s a lot of money. On one side everything gets more expensive and on the other hand we earned less money. So the west Berliners had a difficult financial time after the wall fell. And this didn’t change after a while. A lot of people were jobless. One reason for that is that most business companies employed east Berliners rather than west Berliners because they worked for less money. So already because of that a lot of west Berliner became jobless. This is especially harmful for immigrants, which is a problem that wasn’t thought of for a very long time. The immigrants had a hard time because the east Berliners were rather xenophobic and were and still are kind of like the underdogs. But they obviously didn’t see themselves that much as an underdog because they degraded the Turks for example as an even lower class than themselves. I read just recently, that more than half of all Berliner citizens have exchanged with other people. And that’s an unbelievable high percentage in such short time. A lot of people have moved to the bordering regions, a lot of people moved completely away in even further regions and more and more people, a lot of immigrants, moved in. A very big circulation or exchange took place to that time in Berlin.
    M: So overall the wall opening rather caused damage to west Berlin?
    J: No, I mean in the course of the world history, or the history of a single land, what do 10 or 15 years mean? And what does one single human and there individual fortune mean? When you look how this city, how Mitte for example has developed, what this city has become. We were always a little interesting and wacko in a positive way, but Berlin has become a city that is permanently changing and proceeding since 1989. And if you want to know a little about Berlin, you have to come to this city at least every 2 years because still so much is happening. I personally still get into the car with my family on some weekends and drive around to look what new things have happened in the different regions of Berlin. How architecturally things have changed, which run down monuments, houses, or other things have been renovated and build up again. In Treptow for example, or what they do at the seas, at the Spree, and so on. I still remember how I did a lot of reportages for the TV, where I had to look for places that where being renewed or rebuilt or renovated and so on. I had to report about Marzahn, Hellersdorf for example and interview people from there. I had to go through new prefabricated gigantic settlements and buildings. They gave the people infrastructure, built movie theatres, opened cafes there, in order for people to live properly in these sections or regions as well. So it was relatively good neighbourhood for the people living their. Then a lot of people moved away from these prefabricated houses and settled down in Brandenburg with their families. The only ones left were the poor people who didn’t earn that much money. Because of these people who moved away from these houses, new even poorer people moved in. And so these regions changed again and became worse. So it always changes pretty quickly and chronically. But if you look at the Museumsinsel or Mitte, there is not one single house that hasn’t been renovated. Most of them are even renovated really well. And all this has happened even though you have or had this great citizen exchanges from really poor proletarians to the upper class, to the international upper class. And so we can be lucky that we live in such a great city where all these proceedings and changes take place so rapidly. If you look at that you cant take care of every single individual who might have had a hard time for a certain period. But of coarse there are also many people who think that, for their individual fortune and life, their life would have been easier without the wall opening.
    M: Would you say that east and west Berlin have reunited relatively quickly?
    J: No, We are still producing a lot of programs where we see that the unification still hasn’t completed entirely, that east west is still a big, meaningful, and current topic. We produced a program just recently at the 3rd of October, Day of German Unification, where the topic was, that young people about your age or a bit older, slowly start to ask their parents how life was during the division, how they lived, what where they allowed to do, what things were forbidden, how did you act, did you participate, did you support it, and so on. It took so long until the kids started to dare to ask these questions. In this connection you shouldn’t forget that the teachers still are the same, the east teachers. They were all system eminent people. And just because the wall fell, there wasn’t necessarily a big change in every region of Berlin. That’s still a far cry from saying that every part has been renovated and is better now. There are still major east west differences. That those privileged people who have a nice life don’t see this as a big issue is absolutely not true. Lets say for example you have parents in east Berlin who have a relatively well managed life and you are god in school, get taught at an Gymnasium, fly to America in the 11th grade. In Mitte, Pankow, Prenzlauer Berg, Fridrichshain, you have great schools where people from west and from north Berlin are all together. Those are situations where the east west segregation doesn’t play that much a of a role. From that perspective you have exactly the same options and possibilities as a west kid has. But what goes on in the heads from the older east citizens, the parents and grand parents is a completely different mentality and formation or impression than in the heads of the west citizens. And that’s wont be over for a long time.
    M: Did the State still favour the west from the east in any way?
    J: Vice Versa. The east part got favoured, or at least had a lot more attention and investiones from the state because you had to renew and rebuild everything in the east, absolutely everything! Not only the houses, not only the things above the ground. You had to start under the ground. The entire underground supply system had to be renewed, all those wires and pipes. The telephone cables had to be renewed and in some places even installed for the first time. In the east, also most nobody had a telephone. Maybe every 7th person had one. So if you wanted to talk to somebody, you would have to walk to there house and hope that he would be home. So it started under the ground. Then came the streets and then finally the houses and the rest. So all the money that was planned on being invested in west Berlin, got redirected to the east. Everything! So all this means that the eat got rehabilitated and the west broke down slowly or at least couldn’t maintain there standards anymore. And then after a while they realized that this is extremely unequal and you have to start caring for the west again as well. For many years all the money went to east Germany. Especially in Berlin.
    M: So the state tried to hurry the unification by rehabilitating the east?
    J: Yes, of coarse, they wanted unification to happen as quick as possible. To manage this task was extremely difficult also because you had a west and a east police.
    The east policeman had an 42 hour week and only received 85% of the money where the west policeman had a 38.5 hour week had received 100%. And both of them patrolled together, in the same car. This was one of the remaining segregation issues east and west had to face.
    M: Today, 18 years after the wall has fell, how or did Berlin become a better place ? In what ways has it perhaps become a less desirable city?
    J: Berlin has absolutely become a better place. Berlin has become one of the most attractive cities in the world, for members of the educated classes from all over the world. Berlin is historically seen, a city which may compete with Paris in a few years. At least in regard to museums and so on. Berlin already impresses people from all over the world nowadays with those things we have to offer. They were treasures that come from the east, the capital of the DDR where they also did a lot for the high culture and so on. But also west Berlin, and the this whole new architecture and the cheap prices. Berlin is pretty cheap, which is also the reason why so many people come here because they have a lot ideas, a lot in their heads, but not so much in their wallets. The German Republic has become a 80 million republic, and so internationally, she competes at completely different, much higher standard. The role or the importance of Germany has entirely changed after 1989. We are an equal partner who has to take responsibility for ourselves. This involves that we have to also apply and participate ourselves in foreign countries as well. In situations, which we as a pacifistic raised and war disliking nation, tried to avoid until this time. So we get treated a lot more equal, but we are also a lot power fuller and get perceived much more.
    M: Dou you still see segregations between east and west, maybe even racist issues?
    J: Well, I think that is a question, which you cant answer that clearly. I don’t think that there really are any racist issues. In all parts where people feel bad or have difficult times, it doesn’t matter where, they want that other people feel worse, so that they are not the bottom class and have somebody on which they can pore over all their anger. They always need somebody who acts as an sacrifice for them. The thing which I have hard times understanding and coming along with, is that the east Berliners are still moaning and grumbling even though everything, I mean absolutely everything has been renewed for them, and that even though all these things have happened, that they still vote for the PDS. The political left side which brought them in this horrible situation of the time before 1989. I just cant understand why they vote this very same party. Yes, one has to admit that this party has changed but still has this basic belief, this basic destination of socialism. This party which moans about the capitalism which built up east Berlin. But other than that if you look at surveys, most of the people are glad that the wall fell and don’t want it back anymore. And so I think that in about 20 years there will be a pretty good adjustment of equality between east and west. But one thing will never change, we have a demographic change in the new German states to expense of the future of these states, however the well educated, intelligent young people mainly go to the western states of Germany because overall they have better possibilities there and they earn more money there as well. So there will always stay a certain downward gradient except for Leipzig for example and Sachsen, so Thüringen and all those regions, but I think the east side of Germany will always stay the poorer part of Germany more or less.
    M: In conclusion, what should young people like me, who where not alive at the time of partition, know about the wall and its fall? What messages are most important for them to understand?
    J: The most important thing, that I had to learn, that everybody had to learn, is that it really takes several generations after the wall opening to start thinking that we really are a united Republic, that east and west are similar. This style of the east, these people are mentally formed and influenced so differently from the western people.
    Sometimes you don’t notice this at all, but if you get to know certain east families better, or notice how they intuitively think it certain situations, than you notice e how deep these mental impressions are that they received at home, from the parents from the grand parents, just this very different way of looking at things because of different histories and different experiences. The West Berliner were raised very privileged in a way, but the east Berliners were privileged in a different way as well. The social system of the east, nobody could become jobless, you had an insurance that the state would permanently, at all times would take care of you. These privileges where very different from each other. The east took a lot of things for granted and didn’t ask, what can I do in order for the state to not pay more than it takes in. In that perspective the east side was a lot more egoistic. Because this way of thinking, that you can only give away the amount of money that you take in, just didn’t exist on the other side.
    In case of doubt, they let the western side finance certain things like the high ways and so on. So these differences between east and west is really a very interesting topic which you can say a lot about. This is a topic, that just because 17 years or 18 years have past, it still isn’t out of date.
    M: So the West had more freedoms and possibilities, where the east was more controlled and ruled by the government or the system?
    Y: Yes, the east, and this is also the reason why so many people are “eastalgic” didn’t want this freedom and these great possibilities. They weren’t ready to develop freely. They wanted to live a small live in awareness that their neighbours are pretty much doing, feeling, and living the same life. That where those people who only had limited ambitions and felt comfy living a life in which everybody is more or less equal. But all those people who didn’t want this or couldn’t live with this because they had their own opinion and one ideas and didn’t want to be controlled and taken care of from others. That were those people for which freedom really was important because they wanted to be aloud to express there ideas, say what they think, and state their own opinions. They also anted to have the freedom of doing things that seem normal for us today: watching TV shows, or movies that were produced out side of there borders. These people also didn’t get along with the idea of spying on people like the Stasi did for example. Those people who wanted a little more than what the DDR Socialism gave or offered them. People who saw that there is a world out side their borders, and that there are undiscovered things or new things to them but also pools of ideas and possibilities. For all these kind of people this life was just absolutely unbearable.
    But it’s always the case, that the majority of people say, well actually it was real nice there, we had no worries, the state took care of everything. And for those people, the life in the west is obviously a lot more difficult. In the west you have more possibilities, but you also have more risks. And that’s also the reason why they still prefer this old socialism. Because the other life is a lot more exhausting and stressful.
    So from that perspective these are 2 different cultures that are slowly approaching each other. The first point of approaching is where the people use their educational opportunities self consciously. Because then the east is equally successful to the west. And then after a while these differences blur out and don’t play such a dramatic role anymore. But since Berlin and Brandenburg are such poor cities and the people still suffer so badly because of their living situation because they want to have everything much nicer than it is in reality. Sometimes because they don’t have a job and so on. So they still are full of aggressions
    M: Would you say that more people want this comfy regulated life, or does the majority rather prefer the revolutionary life or the freedom and possibilities and take the risks as a consequence to that?
    J: Well one can argue very well about this question. Everybody says we are the nation and all of us went through the revolution. A lot of people didn’t know what the wall opening really meant or how there life and future will change. Some people didn’t even know what the west is like. Some of them imagined the west as a land of milk and honey, a paradise. They thought you could get anything real easy and for free. But later they noticed that its difficult in the west as well. It’s difficult to measure this in numbers and say which side has the majority. But basically, the system would have collapsed immediately in every case. The system would have been absolutely bankrupt if it wouldn’t have been for 1989. So this government was extremely lucky because it was absolutely broke. And if you think further in terms of globalisation, they wouldn’t even have earned half a point. And a lot of people also know this and because of that they are also glad that things happened the way they did. But it didn’t turn out so idyllic as some people hoped it would.

27. Interview by Marcel Starfinger 10D Interviewee Siegfried Ponick
    S My name is Siegfried Ponick I was born in Cottbus in 1923 i grew up in Stralsund and moved to Berlin after the second World War because the soviets wanted to arrest me, so I basically fled. i worked as a judge in Berlin Tempelhof for 35 years.
    M Describe your family situation.
    S I lived in West Berlin with my wife and my two sons in Südende Steglitz my sister lived in the east and worked as a doctor there. My mother lived in Stralsund and later moved to the west near my families appartement due to her being a pensioner.
    M: So it´s obvious that several of your family members had to travel between the two nations. Was their an emotional effect?
    S: Of course that was a great problem we always felt insecure being separated. But my mother lived near the s-bahn station Attilastraße so that she could visit my sister every 14 days. I bought a house in Hannover which made it possible for my mother to cross the border. The emotional factors were more of a problem for the grown ups. Although my older son did understand what happened and suffered when having to come back from the visits of my sister.
    Can you further describe the issue of travelling?
    S Yes we often met in Hungary during the vacation so that we could see my sister. For some reason the Soviets wanted to arrest me so I couldn’t set a single foot on Russian territory without risking my life. But in Hungary that was possible.
    M U mentioned that you bought a house in Hanover why didn’t you move to Hanover with our family he you felt insecure in Berlin?
    S I was a civil servant and I would have lost my job when moving to Hanover. German politicians tried to avoid a desertation of Berlin. Secondly the prices were fairly cheap in Berlin I mean who wants to buy a house or a property in a place surrounded by Soviets? But today I am very happy that I stayed here.
    M What was the most terrible thing about the iron curtain for you and your family?
    S: The most terrible thing was the separation of the family.
    My grandmother adds: Stop talking about it I still dream of it today!
    -Silence
    S: There was other stuff that terrified me. Once we were on vacation and we were flying back to Berlin and suddenly the crew announced that due to political circumstances it would not be possible to land in west Berlin. I feared that we would have to land in Bulgaria or in the GDR somewhere and I was terrified because of me always having in the back of my head the fact that the soviets wanted to arrest me. In addition I couldn’t even speak on the telephone with my own sister.
    M: Did you ever insist on helping or did you help someone to get over the border?
    S A colleague made me an offer to get my sister over back then we said “rübermachen”. Probably because it sounded less frightening for us. Like I said a colleague offered me a safe opportunity to get my sister over. I told my sister but she rejected. As a doctor she didn’t want to leave her patients and we feared the extreme punishment. That’s how it went back then it was a great deal.
    But I did help to get a friend of mine over the border. My wife’s cousin Herbert worked in the east in Saxony for the electrical industry or something. But he knew all about electricity. Everyone knew that skilled workers like him were needed in Berlin. He wasn’t satisfied with his payment I the east. What I did was driving to Düppel in Zehlendorf and I waited in my car with my son and my wife for Herbert who came from the east through the border at Kleinmachnow. What we did a couple of days before was getting some stuff out of his apartment. But we were all very nervous. But that was before 61. When he came over he was interrogated by the Americans possibly the CIA.
    M: What motivated you to put yourself in such a dangerous situation?
    S I wanted to help my relatives.
    M did you disagree with the regime of the SED?
    S Yes I did.
    M Would speak about your everyday life and the separation interfering with it?
    S Yes there were mostly disadvantages but some good parts to. East and west those were two different worlds in comparison to the east you could buy everything in the west. When I worked at the court at Anhalter-Bahnhof I often went over during lunch or after work and bought bread or sandwiches. Food was much cheaper back then.
    M Did you get in contact with the Stasi or anything related to that or in your family?
    S I didn’t have anything to do with the Stasi and in my family we were all against the regime and the Stasi both the ones living in the west and those living in the east.
    M Your son told you about his Stasi files that he received after demanding for them?
    S Yes he did I looked at them.
    M Did you send a letter as well to find about your possibly existing files?
    S No I didn’t and I won’t. That time is over and I don’t want to get upset when reading them. That time is over.
    M: Did you smuggle goods over the border or did you know anyone who did so?
    S: Yes my mother always did she had a clever technique. Newspapers such as the “Spiegel” were very valuable in the east. She put these newspapers or whatever on between or under her breasts and when the border officers insisted on examining her she became hysterical and said that if she got a heart attack during the examination she would blame the officers. It worked!
    M What about propaganda and provocations of or on either sides?
    S: The soviets had military jets fly over the Bundestag in Berlin during an important Conference. Of course they didn’t want West Berlin to become of importance for western politics so they broke the windows of the Reichstag with their jets. We were terribly scared because at first we didn’t know what was happening. I still remember the sound of the airplanes that did other things than just breaking windows, those airplanes used during the Second World War.
    M: Ok thank you for your time and your will to speak to me grandpa!
    S: Oh thank you for giving me the possibility to speak about it.

28. Oral History of the Fall of the Wall
    Interview
    Interviewer: Dylan Reilly
    Interviewee: Dr. Ulrich Shurman
    Date: 2-12-07
    DR: Would you please introduce yourself?
    US: I am the principal of the John F. Kennedy School, Ulrich Sherman. Born in Berlin, lived almost all my life here.
    DR: Okay. And on what side of the wall were you living at?
    US: I was born in the British sector and lived most of the time in the American sector of Berlin, that’s West Berlin of course.
    DR: And can you recall your opinions when the wall went up?
    US: You could… well, obviously people in Berlin could tell that there was more tension in and around Berlin, and the fact that the Wall was built was something we Berliners did not expect. It came as a shock. I remember exactly the day, visiting a school friend, on that Sunday, the 13th of August, his mom coming into the room and saying, “Hey, turn on the radio. They are building a wall.” Or, “They are closing Berlin off.” I don’t think that anyone used the term Wall yet, because at the very beginning it was barbed wire, they were starting with these rolls of barbed wire. At some places they right away started with a, with a wall. It’s not the Wall we know later on, you know, but it was really…individual stones being put next to, one on top of the other. These concrete parts came later, replaced them practically, in order to make it even more difficult to overcome the Wall.
    DR: Okay, and you said earlier that you had family living over there, or friends?
    US: Yes. So um, we had relatives in the Eastern sector. My mother, my grandmother, they both had friends in East Berlin, and so as children we were used to of course spend a lot of family get-togethers either on this side or on that side of what later was to be the Wall. I distinctly remember that one of the Christmas holidays, we always went in East Berlin with an aunt because it was her birthday at the same time, and going over the S-Bahn, crossing the border, you could see that as soon as you came close to the border there was tension in the train. You could feel that people felt uneasy, because either the gifts you were taking over you didn’t know: Is everything okay? Is everything something they would approve of, or would they confiscate something? Even so there were no regular border controls, it was just by chance. You could see that on all train stations there was East German police, and they were attentively watching all trains going in and going out, and they would sort of randomly select people for control. And also when you walked over the border, you had friends living very close to the border where you could just walk over, and it could happen that you would be stopped and asked for identification, and then they would maybe say, “Open your bag,” or whatever you were carrying. Or they would normally would ask for the purse, things like that. But it didn’t, it wasn’t a regular control system, but they tried to figure out who looks lie either he is either carrying newspapers over, that was forbidden of course, it was um, the East Germans looked at it as capitalist propaganda, and of course books. They didn’t like you to bring over thins like that. And they wouldn’t of course, East German money, they claimed that the value of the East German mark equals the West German currency, which of course wasn’t the case. On the black market or the money exchange shops you would get an exchange rate of one to four or, at a time, one to five. So they considered bringing East German money which you hadn’t changed in West Berlin as illegal, you know, into the GDR. Because, of course, it made it easy for you to shop there, and to bring goods over to West Berlin, and things were scarce in East Germany. So, ja, they thought you were violating customs laws, you know, things like that. That’s why they did these random checks and controls. But that was really very very difficult, you see, how long that borderline was, right in the middle of a city, and it normally, the border was always a street, you know, and you could always say this side of the street is East Berlin and the other side of the street is West Berlin. So you practically have to have border controls everywhere, which was not doable, that’s why, of course, they have decided to build the Wall. And you could tell, well I was a kid at the time, but you could tell that, uh, certain things you wouldn’t say in East Germany. Also we as kids were trained not to make certain political comments on the way over, just to make, maybe would have just said them in order to appear funny or something, you know. Um, because one never knew how others would react. You never knew whether you were sitting at a family table, is there someone who is reporting things out, so you could tell that people in East Berlin wouldn’t say everything, you know, it was totally different than if the family gathering was in West Berlin where everyone felt okay, we are all free and no one cares what you say or what kind of comments you do. You could say it’s all terrible over there, or, things are so scarce, or whatever, and no one would care.
    DR: I know I asked you this before, but did you find any military presence in West Berlin? How did you find the American military presence?
    US: The most normal thing. That’s the amazing thing, that we, we as kids, I didn’t feel there need to be German soldiers or German military. It was the most normal thing to know there was American military, British military, French military, and um, we didn’t see them as enemies but as protectors of the freedom of West Berlin. They were our protecting powers.
    DR: Okay. How did you find the politics of East Berlin? What did you think of it?
    US: Of course we were all pro-West sort of in doctrine [indoctrinated?]. There was no question that we didn’t try to objectively look at the East. It was a dictatorship, it was awful, and we disliked it. Even in cases where they said might have, you know, where people might have benefited from certain aspects, it was just all bad, and Communism was bad, and we didn’t want to know anything about it. That changed later when I was a university student, involved in the later sixties and all, and one took a closer look at Marx and his teachings and how Lenin has transformed them and what Stalinism meant. At that time it was, you know, we didn’t differentiate, it was all bad. [Laughter.] And of course for the, to strengthen the spirit of West Berlin there were, there was a lot of political cabaret going on, which nowadays we don’t have. We just survived on that spirit of confrontation. I remember that there was a very popular, um, radio broadcast with a veers [?], that was a radio station in the American sector, an American run program, they had a program once a month called die Indulane, actually The Islanders, and it all rotated about that West Berlin lived as a free island in the Red Sea, red standing for of course Communism, all surrounding us. And um probably the strongest times of that political cabaret were, um, in the fifties, when the Wall wasn’t there yet, but of course the confrontation was there, and I think it very much shaped what we felt or thought about the East. And, um, entire families would sit in front of that radio if that program was on. I remember that our entire, my brother and I no question together with my mom, my grandmom we would all sit there and and and listen to that radio program. Obviously it was just as funny for us young kids, ja, as it, my mom and my grandmom felt it was wonderful, you know. Um the way they would make fun of the leading communist elite over there [Laughter.]
    DR: Okay, and then you mentioned your school, did you notice a change in schooling? When the Wall fell?
    US: Sure. Sure as long as the Wall was there we felt there that confrontation. Um East West confrontation is one of the most burning issues in Germany, in Europe, therefore everybody had to know the two systems, and, uh, after that initial phase we thought people wouldn’t seriously look at the communist pouch. Later on we felt that people really needed to be informed and therefore the teaching uh to understand the Soviet Union and to understand the German Democratic republic and the other East block states that was a very important ideology to learn the differences about Marxism, and Leninism, and Stalinism and post-Stalinism that was all part of our instruction to actually devote a full semester just to that topic of course uh that is not necessary now days because it is not an issue any longer, and of course we devoted um uh on the opposite um a lot of time to explain the West the ideology and Western philosophies and Western values. We also um there also was a always a course step by step describing the uh division of Germany and the farther drifting apart you know it didn’t just happen with the wall, but it was sort of a step by step development and uh the uh airlift, the blockade of West Berlin in forty eight, forty seven, forty eight, the uh uplift of the blockade and then in the early fifties West Berliners were not allowed to travel to the Eastern Zone to East Germany. They still completely could freely travel to East Berlin, but not ja. So step by step you know uh the Kruschev ultimatum at the end of the fifties trying to force the Western powers out of West Berlin, when the Kruschev ultimatum failed, um, because the Westerners decided to stay, and then of course the Soviets turned to building the Wall and let Kruschev control that wall..
    DR: At what point did you feel confident that the Wall was going to come down?
    US: I don’t really know whether one can say we felt confident. The fact that the Wall was open on the ninth of November, 1989 came as a big surprise. I mean that was unexpected that it was going to happen on that day. And… everyone here in Berlin will be able to tell you where he was, what he did, on the day the Wall was opened. But there were clear indications that obviously things had to change in the East bloc. Ever since Kruschev published his book Perestroika about openness, it was clear that allowing open discussions would probably lead to a different set-up of the East bloc. Of course you couldn’t predict how things would happen and, but the fact that East Germans were not willing to follow Gorbachev’s lead, Honneker was not willing at that time to do that, other Eastern leaders were willing to do that, like Hungary, Hungary was tearing down its wall into Austria, so people from East Germany tried to get to Hungary as an East bloc country, spend their summer vacation there, and then cross the border into Austria and eventually into West Germany.. SO the GDR was forced to deny any visa for Hungary even though it was looked upon as a brother country. Then people tried to get into Czechoslovakia, tried to use [drugs?] as a means to get into the West, that famous incident with the German Embassy in Prague with thousands of people gathered [incomprehensible] negotiations, our Foreign Secretary, Hans [?] at that time, you know, the famous, his famous words when he appeared in the balcony at that embassy, to tell the people that they would get a free ride into the West, you know, a train ride into the West, so you could tell there was unrest. The GDR was obviously unable to control that any longer. Gorbachev came on the third of October, the 40th anniversary of the founding of the GDR, that was a national holiday, he came for the festivities, and he said who is too late will be punished, but I don’t know whether that’s the correct translation into English, in German “Wer kommt zu spät, dem bestroft das leben.” And you could see and feel tat there were things going on which were unusual. Demonstrations, that it wasn’t the normal parade but there were several demonstrations, and I tried to on that day to bring a group of Polish students and their teachers who have been guests of the Kennedy School back to the train station on Friedrichstrasse, the main East Berlin train station at that time, and they would not let me have access to the platform, which was unusual because it was a platform which you as a West Berliner would use for these international trains. And so you could tell by the amount of policemen at the train station that the situation was very tense. And so of course, ja, it was clear, something will happen, the GDR cannot survive the way that it survived for all that time. But you couldn’t know how would they do it. What would they promise their people inside? Will they go as far as to, you know, really give them the freedom to travel, or would they eventually consent to free [incomprehensible], that was very difficult to say, and you never know wouldn’t they just in the last minute to save their system use, um, their secret police, um, to sort of crash that movement force, like they did in the past, with the uprising in ’53, the 17th of June ’53, when they used Russian tanks to subdue that revolution, or the Prague spring in ’68, you know, where they used tanks to restore order. They did that in ’56 in Hungary, or twice in Poland. Would they return to such a policy? Or would they release [incomprehensible.]
    DR: And is there anything else you would like to say about…?
    US: The feeling you had when the Wall was up, that’s something that’s gone with East Germany. When the Wall was up for the first ten years, it was hardly possible for a West Berliner to make visits in the East. In the 60s there were two occasions, connected to the major holidays, where you could apply to enter the East. And then with the détente policy in the early 70s, you could spend a number days in the East, but you had to apply for these visits. And actually every one of these visits were truly special moments. And really everyone who went over, you had to apply, you had to go to an office here. East Berlin would bring officers over to West Berlin to sit in these offices here, different places of West Berlin, and you could go there and apply for a visitor’s pass, ja, on a certain day. Sometimes you’d even have to mention what entrance you would use. There were more than one ways to get into the East. And then after a certain number of days, you could receive, you could go back and get your visitor’s pass. Then, attached to it you had to have a list where you had to list, a form where you had to list all the gifts you were taking into the East. All the current currency you were carrying with you, you had to makes sure you had Eastern currency, but you had get that one to one in East Germany. And when we left East Germany again, or East Berlin, you had to again fill out the reverse side of that form, what all did you buy in the GDR and wanted to take back. And these visits, these border controls, were hilarious.
    DR: Did you ever get a chance to go?
    US: We, we did ja. Since we did have these friends and relatives, and… we made a regular routine to go see some East Berlin, and some also then, a little bit south of Cutlas [?], what’s now the southern part of Brandenberg, and these were truly memorable tours, and the way these, the border controls, if we stayed more than just one day, we could stay overnight, very often it was the Pentecost days, to stay three days in the area called Die Lausitz [?], and then you had to check with the police in these areas, and get your visitor’s pass stamped at the local police that your eally didn’t use the time to go to other places when you were there. And to see these officers, you know, always a little bit dark, always a little bit shabby, to see these, the streets, old cities and it became… Well let me give you a few other examples. Once I had the chance to visit Wittenburg, you know, the place where Martin Luther lived and started the Reformation. Of course that’s a place where a lot of international visitors came. So the main street where all the sights everyone who wants to be in Martin Luther’s footsteps, you know, where they would walk, that was, um, very nice, like freshly renovated. If you were to take off any of the side streets, any of them, the city was a total [incomprehensible.] A similar thing in Strasund [?], on the Baltic, Since the Swedish Prime Minister intended to make a visit on a so-called “peace tour” in order to unify all states around the Baltic Sea to enter into one peace agreement. So he also came to the GDR, made his visit to Strasund to meet Honneker there. The market place, and the road from the harbour where he would come with a ferry boat across the Baltic to that major place, everything was renovated, the rest of the city was total [incomprehensible.] I mean it’s the things like that you know…
    DR: Thank you very much.
    US: You’re welcome.

29. Interview:
    S: Sabine Oelmann
    M: Marvin Winter
    M: Ok, please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    S: My name is Sabine Oelmann, I am 41 years old. I am a Journalist and I’m born and raised in Berlin, in Berlin West.
    M: Okay, good. Here, …UHM On November 9th 1989 when the wall fell, how did you find out and what was the situation you were in when it happened?
    S: Well I was about to go to sleep and I found out at the TV, because I couldn’t believe it and I think everybody couldn’t believe it so they just left the TV running to have a look and to find out and that was how I found out, by TV.
    M: And who were you with? Were you with friends?
    S: No I was with my boyfriend at this time. (Smiles)
    M: Okay. (She laughs) So you were also with your boyfriend during the night when the wall fell?
    S: Yes. (both laugh)
    M: Okay good. You were, you were in west Berlin when all of this happened?
    S: Uh huh.
    M: How did you feel about all of this when the Berlin wall first crumbled? When the first people crossed what were your like first emotions?
    S: Well it was very exciting and unbelievable, it was a picture uh one could never could forget. And I didn’t forget it and if I see any pictures from this period from this time I always still get ‘’Gänsehaut’’?
    M: Goosebumps.
    S: Yes, I still have that.
    M: Ok and uh are there any words any specific words u can connect to the feeling this day brought you?
    S: Incredible, exciting, unbelievable and finally, because the people in the east, eastside of Germany, they were working quite hard to get this done and I think some politicians as well.
    M: Were you like happy about it? Like really happy or were you still a little sceptical.
    S: At first I was very happy but at the same I was still very sceptical because I thought this, this felt like a dream and but everybody new this was real but I felt sceptical about this.
    M: Okay…(cuts me off)
    S: I always thought how it is going to be. There’s coming lots of millions of people who want to see how it is in Germany, west Germany and how will we how can we take them how can we full fill there dreams?
    M: Mhmm
    S: And it was hard, and it’s still hard.
    M: Yeah, uhm, so the day the wall fell or in the course of the next couple of days did you see anybody, someone you knew, from the other side and how did you feel when you’re first saw them what was the emotions.
    S: Well I have relatives in east Berlin and I didn’t see them. I think I saw everybody else but not those relatives. Because uhm, I don’t know, they were elder and I didn’t need them but uhm everybody I think everybody in west Berlin went to the wall or where the wall (sighs) stood and uhm, just welcomed those people. You had to go there you had to be there to convince yourself with your own eyes.
    M: That it happened?
    S: Yes that it happened. So everybody went there, I went there too the next days I can’t say how often but I think everyday.
    M: You would go to the wall?
    S: Yes.
    M: Just to see… Like that’s what(cuts me off again)
    S: Just to see. Yes because then I was a student and I had more time to go to the wall then. (laughs)
    M: Okay, okay uhm…Were you scared of any prejudice the other side could have had? Like when you first passed through the wall were you like scared of what the other might think of you?
    S: No, but in the mean time there were some years where you could see if someone was east or west German because of the clothes they were wearing. But in the first few years no one cared because it was clear.
    M: What were they dressed like? Were the clothes completely different?
    S: Yes they weren’t as fashionable as the clothes in the west. Older clothes maybe, other clothes other style. More suits not so many jeans not the jeans we had in the west.
    M: So if you put a west and east Berliner next to each other one could immediately say which one is which?
    S: Yes one could have. But I didn’t think they would be prejudice.
    M: After the wall fell did you still want to be in west Berlin or did you have an urge to move to east Berlin or be with the east Berlin people?
    S: No I’m a typical west Berliner. I like west Berlin I’m working in Mitte and I really like to be there, 19 years ago I didn’t feel the need to move there. It was like a different world. The streets were different cause of the cars. The smell was different.
    M: Really the smell.
    S: Yes the smell. There was a certain smog covering east Berlin, once I was with my girlfriends and we weren’t aloud to drive cause of the smog.
    M: Wow that’s crazy
    S: Yes
    M: When the wall fell were you kind of scared that your future might be jeopardized?
    S: NO
    M: Not at all?
    S: No not at all. I just felt that was good for the east Germans, I think that’s what everybody felt. No I wasn’t scared.
    M: Was there anything you saw changed right away.
    S: Jobless people almost didn’t exist in those times. Some years later you noticed it with the jobs but not right away. They were always cheaper then west Berliners.
    S: Another funny thing was one winter when I went skiing in Italy with my family we met east Germans and this wasn’t possible in the years before so it was rather awkward hearing a saxonian accent on the mountain.
    M: So you also think it was a perfect time for the wall to fall?
    S: No I think it was almost to late, there were so many possibilities to open the wall and I think there were moments in history when it got dangerous, the people were so unhappy with there lives, it was absolutely clear that they were unhappy. But like 2 years earlier 3 years or 5 years earlier would have been the right time too
    M: Alright yeah, so do you wish that the wall would still be up?
    S: No that is a joke. Some people take it serious but no I don’t want it.
    M: Ok so nowadays can you still see segregation between east and west?
    S: There is still a difference between them getting paid, there’s still segregation. Some places in east Germany are built up again like Leipzig, Dresden etc. but there are some parts where nothing has been done but that is true for west Germany to they say all the money goes to east Germany, sort of a jealousy. But it’s different in Berlin, it’s a big ‘’MELTING POT’’.
    M: So you think Berlin is very unified already?
    S: Well I think Berlin is the most unified place in Germany, I think uhm, here are the most people that wanted to leave east Germany and maybe its to restart here. You didn’t see as many, barely any east Germans in the other west German big cities. It was like an attraction when they first came to West Germany.
    M: So what do you think is the biggest change you noticed.
    S: when we west Berliners wanted to travel we always had to pass through the wall. And then we drove through east Berlin. We would have to wait at the boarders for hours until they checked us for illegal items.
    M: what was illegal in there eyes?
    S: anything from the west ,magazines, cassettes, clothes and newspapers. I can remember when I visited my family in east Berlin, we would have to look in our car to make sure we didn’t have any illegal things in our car. It was always exciting for me and my brother but my parents were angry. We always had to be back before midnight.
    M: Did you ever see anybody get busted for smuggling goods or people?
    S: Yes one time a man tried to sneak his children out of east Berlin and he got caught.
    M: What did they do to him?
    S: He was arrested and the kids were taken back to the mother I think.
    M: Did your family in the east ever want to sneak over?
    S: I think the younger ones yes, but the older ones I think were used to this. They didn’t talk to us about running away. And some people were aloud to leave the east, if you were 60 and your family was having a big party in the west you were aloud to go for a couple of days.
    M: But how could they make sure that they would come back?
    S: They only let them go if they had family that was still in the east or were known for good behaviour. IF they had the feeling yeah they wan to go back, then they would let them.
    M: Do you think East and West Germany are still very different? Like from the culture, but also if you would go from west to east Berlin nowadays could you still see differences?
    S: Its hard to say that for Berlin because I think Berlin is really draw together but if you go to like other parts of east Germany I think you can still see differences. But I don’t think you can say: “oh this is east Berlin and oh this is west Berlin!” because they aren’t to different I know what’s east and west because I know where the wall was. When I was smaller we would go with our school to the boarder look across and see the east Berliners smiling and waving at us.
    M: Wow was that weird for you?
    S: Yes that was weird it was like a zoo. Its like we were an island in the sea of East Berliners.
    M: So if you wanted to leave west Berlin you would still have to go through boarders no matter where you exited?
    S: Yes that’s true.
    M: Did they ever not let you pass through?
    S: Well it depended on the control guy you got, if he was kind of nice he would let you pass if he was an A**hole he wouldn’t. I think if your working on the wall as an officer, and your aloud to shoot people who try to cross, then you’re an a**hole. You have to have something in you that your willing to be a murder, maybe.
    M: If you were a western politician what would you have done differently to maybe have made it fallen quicker?
    S: That’s really difficult because there were politicians like Willy Brandt and Helmut Schmidt oh always had the goal to reunite Germany but you always had to be so careful because of the relationships with Russia. But what I would have done different is opened the wall sooner. It was ridiculous, the so called Monday demonstrations….
    M: Every Monday?
    S: Yes when it got closer and closer to the fall of wall these were held almost every Monday.
    M: So like rallies.
    S: AT the end it was every Monday, and there were like some people who couldn’t stand the situation they were in so they came together to protest against the communistic regime.
    M: Was there a specific leader?
    S: Yes, I have to think of the name, I’m sorry I cant remember.
    M: Were there any violent protests?
    S: No, mostly peaceful, but I wasn’t there I wasn’t in East Berlin during this uprisings so I don’t know if they got violent, how many people gut hurt.
    S: There was a time when the GDR government would use friends of suspicious people to tell on them and be backstabbers.
    M: Friends? Talk about good friends! (she laughs)
    S: Yes they would use the friends or family to find out information and then if the person they were spying on would get to dangerous for the state they would setup cameras in there houses and listen to there telephone conversations.
    M: Ok now for the last part of this interview: Is there anything that young people, who weren’t alive when the wall fell, should know that could help them grow up with the knowledge?
    S: Well can you imagine that?
    M: I know what you mean and its crazy what the Russians did to the Germans but I’m not completely informed.
    S: Well when I went to Spain in 1987 and we were in a bar and watching TV the news showed how bad it was getting around Berlin, and I felt something that made feel like west Berlin was more disconnected from the world then ever, I thought I was never going to be able to go back, I thought that was it. I don’t know why it was like this but it must have been some demonstrations or riots. Wait what was the question?
    M: (laughs) Uhm What message do you want to give to young people around the world to inform them.
    S: Well I think one should do what he or she thinks is right, follow there own will and not be a foolish follower.
    M: So you’re saying that kids shouldn’t just be part of a flock of sheep but they should be the shepherd and take over the initiative?
    S: Yes they need to use there head.
    M: And not just follow.
    S: Yes! To think about it, and not just do what people tell you.
    M: Yeah not just like if 10 people say do this then do it, go you own direction if you must.
    S: If you think the other direction is the right one then do it and I know this is hard sometimes because u want to be part of a group, but if you have the slightest feeling something could be wrong question it and do something about it, don’t just follow and look. Because if you don’t then it might be to late and you’ll be sucked in.
    M: Good, thank you
    S: that’s it?
    M: Yeah that’s it.
    S: Ok thank you

30. Interviewer: Erik Shemanski
    Interviewee: Raimo Mitschke
    ES: Please take a few moments to introduce yourself, start from where you were born and raised and briefly describe your life to the present.
    RM: My name is Raimo Mitschke. I work at the US embassy in Berlin. I work in the economic section, I used to work in the political section, and I was born and raised in West Berlin and I went to school there, but later on I went to school in the States, and spent part of my university career in the states. I worked on Capital Hill, and also engaged in Presidential campaigns in the US, so that’s my US background before joining the US Embassy.
    ES: Can you please recall your opinions towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division? Why or why not? Did u think that the division of Berlin was Reasonable? Why or why not?
    RM: I think my answer to that question is influenced from today’s perspective. Today I enjoy and value the reunification of Germany. At the time of the division of Germany when I grew up I only knew the city being divided, I always thought this was awkward, strange, but then again thinking about unification probably always meant thinking about the communist side taking over and this was not desirable, it was not something that you wanted to happen so under no circumstanced were unification as part of a free and democratic Germany did seem possible at all, so that way as bad as the situation of the division seemed to be or was it still seemed by far the lesser of two evils.
    ES: Did you have any family members of friends living on the other side of the wall? How did the division come between your friendships or your relations to family members?
    RM: I did have family on the other side of the wall, both in east Berlin and south of Berlin. It was very difficult to get there, as a west Berliner you were treated differently by the east German government than being a west German citizen, a west German citizen it was enough to pull out the passport at the boarder and say I want to cross, for an East Berliner it was required to have a visa just to go to the other side of the city, and you had to apply three weeks in advance, so you couldn’t just wake up and say oh I want to visit west Germany, you had to plan things way in advance.
    ES: How did you feel that West Berlin had a puppet-style Government during the partition?
    RM: It was never obvious to me growing up as a student. I have realized that of course the allied status did not permit the west Berlin government to do things that other state governments in western Germany were allowed to do. I then realized that there were certain imitations, but growing up it was frightening for the broad republic that was not really obvious anymore in the 1970’s because the western allies publicly did not interfere in a way that the western Berlin public wouldn’t really take notice. I mean it was going on behind the scenes but not in public so for the general public the West Berlin government was like any other state government but when you knew a little bit more you knew that the powers would be different.
    ES: How did you resent the US military presence in Berlin?
    RM: I don’t know I cant speak for the true public for my generation because at the time I would have to say that one would have to differentiate between the thinking that was there in western Germany, and what people were thinking in west Berlin. When you lived in west Berlin the military presence was a very reassuring thing, because you knew as long as the troops were there west Berlin will be free. I mean it was a safeguard you may not fully agree with all the policies, but overall those troops were guaranteeing the freedom of West Berlin. And since there was no German military in West Berlin the western allied military presence was what defended oneself.
    ES: And how did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin? How were they hurting West Berlin?
    RM: I think a lot of that I just answered, because the political presence was to look after what was going on in west Berlin, I saw and considered something positive, because the fear of west Berlin was to be left alone that world politics would maybe forget about them and if the world forgot about them then the Russians would come in and take over. So as long as the west German allies were paying attention to the situation in Berlin, there was what was reassured that the status of west Berlin would not change to a negative way.
    ES: At What point did you feel confident that the country was going to be reunited? What happened to make you confident that the reunification was on its way?
    RM: Like I said earlier it was for me growing up in a city that was divided in a situation where change wasn’t always considered likely to be a change to the positive, and it took me a long time to realize that there was actually a change, and the change would become positive after a while. It wasn’t until the early summer of 1990, and this was way after the fall of the wall, and then I realized that the unification was really on its way. Even after the wall, after November 9th I still didn’t believe in any unification, I thought there would be a separate East German state, because I still didn’t believe in the unification.
    ES: On November 9th how did you find out about the fall of the wall? Where were you on the night when the wall fell, and who were you with?
    RM: I was visiting my parents, they also lived in Berlin, and we watched it on television and my fist thought was that when the announcement came that the East German government was willing to issue visas to the East Germans to go over to West Berlin. I thought it was a break through, but I still thought it would take the East German government a few days until we would see anyone actually cross the boarder. But as we know I was very wrong because it didn’t take a few days to cross, it only took a few hours for people to hear about the fall and to try to get across.
    ES: Describe the atmosphere when the wall came down, what was it like?
    RM: (laugh) a very easy way to describe it is that it was a zoo (laugh) you had to imagine that West Berlin was for most people the showcase, it wasn’t only a big city but it was also a big city with a lot of interesting things to see. For example department stores, theaters, everything, that’s why you can’t imagine the stream of people and cars it was like a avalanche of people, like the flood gates were open and people were pouring in. It is actually pretty literal the flood gates being the wall and so people would just stream across. November 9th was a Thursday, so the real flood was setting in on Friday of course the western cities stores were staying open all Saturday and all Sunday because they could not cope with all the people. All the people just wanted to get a feel of what the west was like and if it was actually the way they thought it was to be. And as a west Berliner you would try to stay home (laugh) and off the streets because it was just crowded. It was a very joyful and chaotic situation, and there was a lot of energy in the air, you could tell.
    ES: What was the first emotion you felt when you knew Germany had been reunited?
    RM: Really relieved that it happened very smoothly and peacefully, because I mentioned the 300,000 Russian troops around West Berlin, basically controlling the gates and the access routes to Berlin, and they could have handled the situation very differently. And in addition the East German military could have been ordered to shoot the people, and to stop the demonstration, but all this didn’t happen. I just know that I felt that it was a great sense of relief, and in a way it was a loss because I knew with unification the western allies would leave. And the western allied troops would leave, and it was a reassuring thing and I was actually sad when the western allied troops left.
    ES: On the day the wall fell did you see anyone that you knew on the other side? What did you feel when you were reunited with that person or those people?
    RM: I didn’t see anyone that I knew, actually on November 9th when everything happened in the evening I didn’t go out that night but I managed to visit my friend in the morning and we had breakfast together. She said well lets go to the wall there’s a lot going on, and I wasn’t very excited to go to a place where a lot of people have been and are still there, because I’m not really a crowd person. So we ended up going to one of the checkpoints, and it was a situation and an atmosphere that I have never experienced before, people were so happy, and it was incredible, hugging and kissing each other, and we continued towards the Brandenburg gate which was not a checkpoint so there was no way to get across it so we went up to the wall at the Brandenburg gate. It was not easy to do, you had to get help from other people reaching down so that they could pull you up. And as we were in the middle of the wall the former mayor arrived and it was a very emotional and historic moment for me, and it was very exciting to see him.
    ES: After the wall fell, what part of Berlin did you want to live in and why?
    RM: After the wall fell I had lots of eastern Berlin friends so I was going back and forth, and pretty soon the sides didn’t really matter to me, and east Berlin was like a foreign city to me. Like every foreign city you want to explore it and there was a certain excitement, but overall I felt more comfortable, and I felt that the western side was more of a home to me.
    ES: If you could’ve done something different on November 9th what would you have changed or done? Can you give any examples?
    RM: I think I would have liked to go to one of the checkpoints the night of the fall even though i’m not a crowd person, and I think that is the only thing that I would have done differently.
    ES: Did you or do you in any ways wish that the wall remained? Explain?
    RM: Well its easy to say I mean for me i’m glad its gone because I can freely travel I have access to different places in eastern Berlin, I can see friends I can see family, I can go and do anything without having the fear of the military taking over. Economically I am fortunate to have a very interesting job, and to be in a financial situation that supported me. But once again there are people that were in their fifties, and when unification came they had a hard time coping with the transformation process. And as for me I think I was at the right age for an East Berliner to cope with the transformation process, but yet again I don’t want to see the wall go up again.
    ES: In 1989, did you feel that Germany immediately unified or could you tell that it would take some time for Germany to become one whole?
    RM: I actually did think it would take a long time, but now were are 15, 17 years from the fall of the wall, and you can still sense not from going places, because they look alike, the east looks like the west, and a lot of mentalities are still different. But then again it still has to do with the fact that some regions are having a hard time economically, and the people are not so enthused about now living in the west, and being capitalist and they are looking back to the old east German days and glorifying those days.
    ES: And now 18 years later, what significant differenced so you notice in Berlin since Germany had been reunited? In what ways id Berlin a better place? In what ways is it perhaps a less desirable city?
    RM: First of all I think it is a very different place, it had become more dynamic, and it’s very attractive, attracting a lot of people, and there are a lot of places in the city offering a lot of good opportunities seeing that it is a capital. There are a lot of the decision makes, and the rates are low, and it’s very easy to start of a business. But whets more difficult are that the city is dividing itself socially, you have neighborhoods before the unification where there are a high number of foreigners. And there is a social division now.
    ES: Thank you very much; I am very thankful for your time.

31. Interviewer: Iliana Tolentino (IT)
    Interviewee: Maria Bello (MB)
    IT:
    Please take a few moments to introduce yourself. Start from where you were raised and briefly sketch your life to the present.
    MB:
    My name is Maria Bello. I was born in Bari, Italy. My family and I moved to West- Berlin in 1976. I graduated high school and then I went to school to become a paralegal. After I graduated I worked as a translator for the Italian Chamber of Commerce in Berlin. I left Berlin one and a half years after the wall came down. My family and I moved the United States
    IT:
    On what side of Berlin were you living on while the city was divided, and how did this affect you and your way of living?
    MB:
    Living in west Berlin didn’t really affect me the only times it did, is when we used to travel down to Italy either by train or car it would take a long time to pass through the east part of Berlin because they had a speed limit and of course the checkpoints/ borders. If I remember correctly there was one entering the east and one leaving the east and there would always be traffic jams because they would stop cars and conduct searches for people you might be smuggling out of the east.
    IT:
    Please recall your opinions (of the time) towards the division of Berlin. Did you support the division?
    In your opinion, was the division of Berlin reasonable?
    Why or why not?
    MB:
    I had no real opinion about it I don’t recall ever discussing that issue with friends
    IT:
    Why, do you think you never discussed this issue?
    MB:
    The wall was part of our lives we grew up with it so we didn’t really talk about it we just accepted it as it is
    IT:
    Did you ever visit the East?
    If you did, why?
    MB:
    Yes, I believe it was 1987 I was hired for a translating job for the Leipziger Messe I think I was there for a whole week it was very interesting. Since I did not wanted to spend my money on a Hotel room my Boss organized (since he left for Leipzig before me) for me to stay with a local family. I paid 20,00 Deutsche Mark per night they didn’t want any East German Mark also my Boss asked me to bring a few pairs of silk stockings, coffee and the BRAVO a youth magazine for my host family, because they were not able to get those things in the East I know they had coffee but I guess the West coffee was better? I remember going there was like a culture shock for me everything was so grey everything seemed like a black and white movie what also shocked me were those building complex called “Plattenbau” I had a hard time finding the right house entrance almost for the entire time I was there. But I must say I was pleasantly surprised about the people I met while I was there. For one the family I was staying with treated me like their own making breakfast and waiting for me to get up so we could eat together, driving me to the Messe. Their son took me to his youth club that’s how/where they spend their free time. I remember the Teenager asking me about MTV and they loved Michael Jackson and all of them dreamed about visiting Italy one day.
    IT:
    Please describe the conditions Berliners faced when traveling between the two sectors.
    MB:
    I already answered this in the second question you asked me. I also should say that since I am not a Berliner maybe my traveling experience was different maybe Berliners were more likely to be harassed by the East German Police.
    IT: why so?
    MB: well maybe they thought a Berliner was more likely to do something against their law or smuggle their family members out, out of personal interest.
    IT:
    Did you have any family members or friends living on the other side? How did the division come between your friendships or your relations to family members?
    MB:
    Luckily I had no family members or friends living in the east side of Berlin since all my family lives in Italy.
    IT:
    But if you did have family members on the other side what would you have done or how do you think you would have felt?
    MB:
    Well it is hard to say, I can’t imagine not being able to see my family since we are very close, I guess I would have tried everything to reunite the family
    IT:
    How do you think were children affected by the partition of the city?
    MB:
    I don’t think that children ever thought about the partition of the city at least I can’t recall any of my German friends or my school- mates mentioning the Wall, I guess if they had family in the east it would have been different.
    IT:
    You have told me that you traveled through the east and west side of Berlin. Correct?
    MB:
    Yes I did say that
    IT:
    How many times have you traveled through the different sides of Berlin and in your opinion did you always have the same encounters?
    MB:
    At least twice a year. Yeah it was pretty much the same boring drive scary at times.
    IT:
    What was your perception of life and politics on the other side?
    MB:
    My perception was that people in the east had no freedom of speech they were not free to leave or to visit Western country’s. People had no possessions and where told what to study or what type of work they are to do. They also had to wait 10 years to get a car (I guess they had to apply for one but I don’t know how it worked.)
    IT:
    Do you think the way the eastern people were living was fair or unfair?
    MB:
    Well definitely unfair!! How can you prohibit Human beings to go where they please or to say what they want without being punished
    IT:
    Can you provide examples of blatant censorship/propaganda on either side?
    MB:
    No, I remember people mentioning a T.V. channel called ‘DER SCHWARZE KANAL’ used for propaganda in the east.
    IT:
    If you had children at the time, how did you explain the partition of Germany?
    MB:
    I was too young to have had children
    IT:
    Well let’s say you were old enough to have children what would you have said?
    MB:
    I am not sure I guess I would tell it as it came to be.
    IT:
    Where were you when the wall came down?
    MB:
    I was at home with my family watching television and I remember not believing what was happening, we were so used to the Wall that we didn’t think it would ever come down. The next day my family and I went to Bornholmer Strasse (since we were living in Wedding that was one of the borders/crossing points for East and West) I remember hundreds of people either walking or in Trabant’s (small east German cars) coming over to the West either crying of joy laughing and hugging us. What I also remember is seeing hundreds of Banana peels on the streets. I was later told that it was really rare (if at all) that you could get Banana’s in the East.
    IT:
    Whoa, If I were you I would have been totally terrified of all them banana peels on the ground I would have thought that it was the end of the world or something, but anyways back to the point, What were your emotions that day, did they emotions of the other people influence you?
    MB:
    Of course, it was heartbreaking seeing family’s crying hugging and kissing each other telling each other how much they missed each other and how happy they are now.
    IT:
    How, if at all, did you resent the US military presence in Berlin?
    MB:
    I did not resent the U.S. presence; in fact I am glad the U.S. military was in Berlin otherwise I would have not met my husband since he was one of the soldiers that were stationed in West- Berlin. But I know all Berliners were thankful of the allies the French and the British and the protection they offered.
    IT:
    Did you live in the American sector?
    MB:
    No, actually I lived near the French sector but anywhere you went in Berlin you always met either one of the members of the allies.
    IT:
    How did you feel that the West was helping West Berlin?
    How were they hurting?
    MB:
    I had never thought about how the West helped West- Berlin I was so busy trying to learn the German way of life and that didn’t include the political part, but you could not miss knowing that the West supported West- Berlin at least financially and economically.
    IT:
    Did your parents ever talk about Berlin or its separation?
    MB:
    Yes, I remember my father often talked about it with his friends.
    IT: Well Maria I thank you very much for your time that was very interesting hearing your point of view on the fall of the Wall. I guess these are real life stories we wouldn’t be reading in any history book.
    MB: Oh no problem I am glad you enjoyed my stories

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